BALANCE DISCUSSION

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Aug 10, 2011 16:46

Subject: BALANCE DISCUSSION

Cpt Hawaiian

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Well, I think it's worth discussing again. Titans are underrepresented in the top tier rankings, and I believe they could use a buff. There are 6 Titan players in the top 50. wow.

What are all your thoughts on the state of balance right now?

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Aug 13, 2011 12:06

Subject: Re:BALANCE DISCUSSION

magegriffin

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Thank you for starting this thread. I was about to start one myself, and it was about buffing the titans.

Titans - Looking at the name of this race, and at some of their draconian units like the plasma tank and walker, you would feel like they are supppsed to be this godlike power house, but that is not the case.

I want to go over each titan unit, and how its doing in each matchup.

Mecha: This is supposed to be the counterpart to the marine, except theoretically supposed to be tougher and slower.
Having teleport actually makes this unit sometimes better than the marine, but on small maps the marine dominates because it gets into good mountainous positions first.

Currently the mecha is doing terrible in T vs S. In straight up mecha vs marine, the mecha is fine, besides losing good early positioning. It is the engineer that is ruining this, I can't stress it enough. If you had mecha and assims vs marines and engis, the titan will lose by a land slide, with mass amounts of reprograms and emps going off.

It's fine that the engineer can reprogram mechas. The imbalanced issue is that the taken over mecha is now stronger than it used to be. The enemy is already ahead when they took over your unit, but now its a slap in the face when this unit is stronger than it used to be.

Solution - Any taken over unit - Infected marine / Reprogrammed Mecha / Assimilated Underling, will retain the same stats as the regular unit, instead of being stronger.

Assimilator - This unit is fine as is, i still think it's sapien engineer counterpart is doing better.

Solution - slightly lower uv radiation cooldown by amount of turns down from 15, either 1 or more.

Speeder - Doing Pretty fine, great early sight scout, i still think possibly its marauder counterpart is doing better. The marauder way out moves the speeder. Make the speedwr the slower and stronger counterpart then.

Solution - Possibly increase its damage one point to light or heavy.

Eclipse - This unit is doing fine in its job vs aerial and backup support vs light. As long as other titan units get buffed, it is fine as is.

Plasma tank - This unit is severely lacking vs its sapien and khral counterparts. It will guaranteed lose everytime 1v1 vs a tank or pinzer, and a plasma and assim vs another races tank and repairer is a landslide loss for sure.

Solution - give the plasma tank a base repair rate of 2, or increase its damage vs ground heavy.

Walker - this unit is doing very well and is fine.

Aug 13, 2011 12:19

Subject: Re:BALANCE DISCUSSION

magegriffin

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I want to talk about the titans in general more, and its matchups.

The titans are supposed to be a crazy advanced race with godlike weaponry, a slow and hardhitting race.

Titans vs Sapiens -

The sapiens should be in fear of the Titans, the titans are so advanced anf slow and lumbering. But sadly this is not the case, and the titans are currently pretty scared of the sapiens.

The Titans are supposed to focus on a slow moving power house vs the sapiens.
The sapiens mudt overcome this with their own tactics. Use their better base speed, like the marine to get good early positioning, and the marauder for great movement in open spaces. Keep delaying the damage output of the titans by emping them with engineers, this move will be how the sapiens delay defeat. The sapiens also have air, they would use their heli for good speed, picking off weak titan units and assimilators.

Titans vs Khraleans - the titans again will focus on a slow and lumbering powerhouse. The khraleans are yet again a very high numbers swarm, focused on speed and regeneration. The titans will stop the khrals with pure fire power, mass amounts of aoe uv radiation, and assimilating the bottom underlings to keep the tide of war even.

The khrals will get blown up by titans at equal cost, so the khrals must overcome by staying alive with great repair generation, lots of flanking tactics with aerial units, and great positioning and ambushing with underlings and their burrow.

Titans vs titans -

They are both high tech, slow and lumbering power houses of damage. This fight must be a slowly creeping frontline until they finally meet, and they will kill eachother with focus fire, plasma tanks killing eachother, mechas and walkers assisting.

Aug 17, 2011 04:32

Subject: Re:BALANCE DISCUSSION

igniz13

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Joined: Apr 02, 2011,
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Whats with all the titan love?

Mechs could do with a little defence buff but thats it, their teleport is ridiculous on anything but the smallest maps. Giving them a ridiculous pressure game.

Plasma tanks are stupid tough and only lose out when on bad terrain, killing them is hard otherwise and none if the other sides have anything which can break that defence.

Sapiens need some better tech as do the Khraleans to a lesser degree.

All the repair bots should be changed. Transforming units is just bad and having an engineer who only works against one side is poor.

Aug 17, 2011 09:43

Subject: Re:BALANCE DISCUSSION

Cpt Hawaiian

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Well I just got a reply by the devs in the form of a balance update! haha I've moved this discussion to the new Post:

"Titan Buff Officially Released. DISCUSS"

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Aug 17, 2011 11:38

Subject: Re:BALANCE DISCUSSION

waxoid

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Wow, that's huge. I'll comment on that there. Some thoughts on the general balance questions (now that I've played a bit more.)

It's somewhat a question of maps, but in general agree with others that Titans actually readily crush soft & fragile Sapiens. (There's a rock-scissors-paper of Titans-Sapiens-Khraleans.) To magegriffin's point, Titans aren't in fact running scared from Saps. I think the single biggest danger for Titans is Marauder rushes in the early game, aiming to take advantage of Titan unit cost and mobility, and the one ranked game where I've come close to losing to Sap as Titans was on Gold Rush versus a Marauder mob. (I said "come close" not lose.

Marauders at some point can't win material against Plasma-Speeder mixes though if they can't get a knockout blow.

Engineers are dangerous but become less relevant as the game progresses, and once a Titan-Sapien match gets to walker stage engineers become weak and the match starts to get wrapped up. Even on Scramble, which I've heard players complain is a guaranteed Sapien win due to engineers, I'm 2-0 on this matchup against 2400+ ranked players. (It's possible there is a Sapien win there, but it isn't easy – the problem with engineers is they come with an opportunity cost. EMPs are only really dangerous if you have hardware on hand to inflict punishment on the pulsed tanks, but you've spent some number of credits on soft little engineers, vulnerable to speeders and eclipses.) So to your concern mage, it's not really an issue that mecha + sim vs. marine + eng is imbalanced – that's just due to the rock-scissors-paper setup of healers converting enemies, but that setup exists to help balance the larger imbalances in play when you look at whole races.

Super forested or mountainous maps can be a different story (maybe Jungle is a Sapien win? … haven't played that one for whatever reason.) Still, if anything I've been more worried lately that this race matchup is too imbalanced in favor of Titans, as it can be frustrating playing the Sapien side. I finally(!) lost a ranked match to someone playing Titans (see below), and it was as Sapiens (though I came a hair's breadth from stealing that one too.) Perhaps marines need a special ability like 'sabotage' to somehow weaken a single Titan tank for a turn if they can get next to it (to help devise strategies against plasmas, for example), but I'm definitely not sure of any recommendation there.
cont'd...

Aug 17, 2011 11:57

Subject: Re:BALANCE DISCUSSION

waxoid

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While I think there are some balance issues to look at, I think the single largest problem with Titans and the lack of high-ranked Titans players is that you just have to have this somewhat inhuman level of methodical patience and attention to detail to be effective at high levels. Most players just either can't do that or won't do that. I'm routinely disappointed by the level of Titans play I run into – e.g. I've won nearly all my ranked Saps vs. Titans matches but I invariably feel it was due to poor Titan play.

The Titans mantra should be "robots are infinitely patient". Don't rush to build a walker. Don't rush to attack or step it forward once you have it. Sometimes some rushing is appropriate but in general most players go wrong by not coordinating units well (underuse of speeders, poor use of eclipses, overconfidence in unsupported plasmas,) building walkers too early, and not defending walkers well enough - particularly from combos involving marauders (who move twice, remember?

)

Khraleans is the tough match for Titans, and that's where there's been a real balance question. Khral controls engagement, gets to position ants and then explode in with swarmers, wyrms and/or levis to rip open holes and take down key units. I still worry about this balance, but as I've continued to develop Titan play I've come to appreciate new depths of the 'patience' principle, and see this as more purely map sensitive. Playing better requires insane attention to every single ant sign/possibilities, for one. Plus the crucial concept of density – hardening walker forts before advancing. Walkers fronted by plasmas and eclipses rather than mechas are happy walkers. Also making sure to back with enough (min. is coverage by 2-3 on key areas) assimilators to make sure the Swarm gets microwaved on high before eclipses and walkers return fire, killing rather than wounding with every shot. (A sky filled with singed and smoking scraps of dragonfly wings is a beautiful thing.) In my last round of games I was able to win some high ranked games on matchups I had feared were too stacked in favor of Khral before, like Bog and Land Bridge, which was nice to see. Also got some confidence that more open maps like Rubicon can even feel favorable. Some maps (e.g. Jungle) certainly remain 100% unwinnable. In ranked play it is rare to get challenged as K vs. T currently, of course.

Probably there are more 'how to play Titans' guides that need to get written... in our copious spare time

Aug 17, 2011 12:05

Subject: Re:BALANCE DISCUSSION

waxoid

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Oh, random sap vs. titan balance comment – I think engineer mobility should be bumped up to 8 or at least 7 (as fast as mechas) to give them more chance to scramble onto terrain so they can survive a first hit from speeder, eclipse or walker and still EMP or threaten reprogramming. However, there's a need to be cautious about impact to sap vs. khral.

Aug 17, 2011 23:12

Subject: Re:BALANCE DISCUSSION

Cpt Hawaiian

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Many excellent points waxoid, regarding proper Titan play, and I very much so agree with the tactics you outlined. Any new titan players can learn a wealth of knowledge just from your post and probably raise 100 points if they desire! lol

Now, about the Khralean balance, let's look at the speeder increase in movement. On a map like butterfly, Khraleans can guaranteed out run you to any of the bases and take them before you can wink, and there isn't anything you can do about it. Now, with the speeder buff, you can cover those bases before the Khral can steal it. Of course, you can move your slow mechas in range, either by walking or warping, but either way, it is now going to be a real fight for that base. So that movement buff, I believe, will really pay off in the early game. So that's an example, to me, of the "rightness" of this buff.

In the late game, theoretically an opponent can be sure to keep other units around to exert zone of control will basically negate all that extra movement. Right now, I am still liking this speeder buff. I will try some matches as Saps against Titans to see if the speeder movement buff really changes my gameplay much.

And...I still think Titans need more buffing specifically against Khrals.

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Aug 20, 2011 00:58

Subject: Re:BALANCE DISCUSSION

Cpt Hawaiian

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Just a quick update, played a few games against Titans and as Titans vs. Saps. I really don't think the buff is overpowered at all. If anything, early game it helps titans get a footing and fight for bases, which is one area where they struggled before on certain maps.

Late game, zone of control is very much in effect, and in most cases you can't even use all your movement points. I do need to try some larger maps, too, to feel it out. Most of my tests were on smaller maps like Dead Monk and such.

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Aug 22, 2011 13:01

Subject: Re:BALANCE DISCUSSION

waxoid

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I'm sure in some respects (e.g. scramble for early bases on maps that include that dynamic) it makes a lot of sense. My concern in general is that giving Titans a leg up in the early game is essentially extinguishing what hope Sapiens has, because they definitely lose in the endgame against walkers. (Fully understanding that involves a more in-depth conversation of the art of Walker Fu, such as positioning to insure batteries cannot close the distance without walkers cross-firing to insure attacking from range 5, and using assimilators so that if a battery does fire from range 4, and say both battery and walker are reduced to 3, that assimilator fires from behind walker, and 3 strength walker follows up to (almost 100%) eliminate the offending battery, and then heal up from there, etc.)

Aug 30, 2011 08:38

Subject: Re:BALANCE DISCUSSION

Cpt Hawaiian

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waxoid wrote: Oh, random sap vs. titan balance comment – I think engineer mobility should be bumped up to 8 or at least 7 (as fast as mechas) to give them more chance to scramble onto terrain so they can survive a first hit from speeder, eclipse or walker and still EMP or threaten reprogramming. However, there's a need to be cautious about impact to sap vs. khral.

I have to disagree here. Engineers already put mechas defense capabilities to pieces and giving them more mobility will seriously unbalance several maps, especially like peninsulas where engineers will be able to basically chase mechas down through two forest spaces with no problem. They will essentially become the only specialist faster than the unit it steals.

If anything, I could see an assimilator movement buff. A buff like this would also be more of a buff against Khrals, since underlings will be a bit more held back with a faster assimilator. In addition, Titans are turtlers and need that extra healing in different places to get things done. So an assimilator movement buff would make far better sense to me.

My whole problem right now with assimilators is that they typically get junk compared to other race specialists. Think about it. Usually assimilators get 3 strength underling steals from popup crap, whereas engineers often get nice strong mecha steals. And an assimilated underling is worse than the mecha II in stats. In addition, assimilators are in far more danger of being popup killed everywhere. (it's nice that at least they can at least survive now in forests and such, but still)

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