[Search] Search   [Recent Topics] Recent   [Hottest Topics] Hottest   [Login] Login
Titan Buff Officially released! DISCUSS
Forum Index » General Discussion
[Avatar]
Cpt Hawaiian

Messages: 199,
Joined: Sep 12, 2010,
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Offline

[Avatar]
Cpt Hawaiian

Messages: 199,
Joined: Sep 12, 2010,
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Offline
Well I just got a reply to my last post by the devs in the form of a balance update! haha

Speeder move from 14 to 16
Eclipse Heavy Damage from 3 to 4

Interesting changes. I'm most interested to see the speeder movement increase in action. That basically means 5 regular tile movement (salivates) as well as 4 of any special tiles such as desert and bases. I'm happy with this because on certain maps titans get way overpowered by mobility of other race high mobility 100 credit units. (think peanut, which is IMPOSSIBLE as a Titan to beat a Sapien who can immediately move into the mountains, capture the base, and deny your slow lumbersome mechas with engineers all the day long). Titans need an affordable low-credit unit to be able to handle the early game and speeders are really the only thing they have, so a buff here is great.

Eclipse buff will make some difference when you have an enemy heavy camping a base, as it now has a better chance to do 1 damage instead of serving only to begin gang up bonuses. This is a very minor change, in my opinion. Since the eclipse is the next tier up from the speeder, it's nice to have a buff on these more affordable units that will be prevalent in earlier game. I wouldn't mind even buffing its light damage to 11. Just sayin. 6 Titans in Top 50 ranking.


To be honest, I was hoping for a mecha movement buff from 7 to 8. Granted, this would be a MAJOR change, but in reality the mecha would still have only been a two space movement unit, just able to finally traverse the specialized terrain better like the Krahlean infestor can after its last movement buff. Marines and Lings can always still move 3 regular tiles, and the mecha would still only move 2 even with this buff. To me, Titans need a major buff in one area or the other.

Either way, though, I'm happy with seeing a buff to Titans. They needed it badly, and probably still need some more buffing in the future.

---------------------------------------
MODERATOR has spoken.
[WWW]
[Avatar]
nfong

Messages: 576,
Joined: Mar 07, 2010,
Location: where it's fun
Offline

[Avatar]
nfong

Messages: 576,
Joined: Mar 07, 2010,
Location: where it's fun
Offline
Speeders are slightly OP in tvt.
Tvk is almost balanced.
Tvs is extremely broken now.

When life gives you lemons...

"TAKE YOUR DAMN LEMONS BACK, LIFE. I DON'T WANT YOUR STINKIN' LEMONS."
[Avatar]
Cpt Hawaiian

Messages: 199,
Joined: Sep 12, 2010,
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Offline

[Avatar]
Cpt Hawaiian

Messages: 199,
Joined: Sep 12, 2010,
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Offline
  nfong wrote: Speeders are slightly OP in tvt.
Tvk is almost balanced.
Tvs is extremely broken now.


Can you explain why you think so? In a mirror match, I don't see how a unit can be overpowered. Unless you mean it will be overbuilt and spammed sort of like a swarmer is right now in KvsK?


---------------------------------------
MODERATOR has spoken.
[WWW]
[Avatar]
waxoid

Messages: 442,
Joined: Aug 07, 2010,
Location: Seattle, WA
Offline

[Avatar]
waxoid

Messages: 442,
Joined: Aug 07, 2010,
Location: Seattle, WA
Offline
Wow. That is a crazy speeder buff! First unit to be able to move 5 hexes (other than marauder). On some maps/matchups it will be brilliant for balance / game value, offsetting the extreme Titan sensitivity to terrain. It will have a big impact on titans vs. khral (increased range threat to wyrms, in particular), and that may also be equalizing (or worse!) But agree with nfong (per my comments in the other balance thread) that this is just *brutal* for saps vs. titans. Though to Cpt's point, there are relatively few high-ranked Titan players so maybe in practice it will seem more balanced than it is.

Eclipse buff seems okay. I've always thought it was a bit galling that buzzing little swarmers get to spit at ground heavy for 5 and eclipses only do 3.

It will be a fun reason to play some more games though and see what happens...
lion1

Messages: 17,
Joined: May 17, 2011,
Offline

lion1

Messages: 17,
Joined: May 17, 2011,
Offline
Ok, here are some random thoughts about the update:

1) Glad to see the devs are doing something. It seems that they have abandoned this game.
2) The devs should have first read the many posts on this forum and spoken with the top players before making the change.
3) This change will not fix the main balance problems in the game which are:
-Khrls beat Titans
-Saps beat Khrls
-Red has a big advantage over blue
4) Eclipse heave attack to 4 is a good idea. I dont see many cases where it makes a difference. On rare occasions it will help. Speeder and Marauder attacks against eclipses will now be slightly less beneficial.
5) Speeder mobility to 16 is not a good idea. Even before this change I have noticed many players just spam speeders. Now they will do so even more. I think the speeder was too strong even before this change and is now way too strong.
6) Khrls will continue to beat Titans. On some maps, the speeder might be able to hit the Wyrms, but only in cases where the wyrm was using terrain as cover (Dead Monk comes to mind).
7) Titans vs saps will now be very different. I see swarms of speeders hitting trucks, heli's and Marauders from far away. On many maps this change will give Titans a very big advantage.
Titan player can now build a wall of PT's. Behind that wall put Walkers and speeders and slowly advance. Use the speeders to kill any trucks that are even remotely close to the battle front. The Sap player has nothing that can stop that strategy (except maybe terrain on some maps).
9) Sap Trucks were already rare, not we will see them even less since the Speeder is now a truck killer.
10) It is unfair to change the rules in mid game. I am playing a game where I was going to win and will probably lose now. Not fair.
11) There are more changes that the game urgently needs and that would be very quick and easy to add. More maps. Option to decline game invites. Better random game matching system. I dont see why this change got top priority.

[Avatar]
waxoid

Messages: 442,
Joined: Aug 07, 2010,
Location: Seattle, WA
Offline

[Avatar]
waxoid

Messages: 442,
Joined: Aug 07, 2010,
Location: Seattle, WA
Offline
Well said, of course agreed that it would be great to see more dev involvment on the forum. They should have some sort of beta panel of people recruited from top 50 who are actively playing random ranked, have them consult and beta test changes and discuss them here before rolling them out. I'm sure they'd find people willing to spend the time, it'd be more fun & successful. Strange.

Good point on eclipse buff, marauder attacks is probably the most significant & common impacted exchange there, and that's fixing the wrong balance problem (balance needed vs. Khral not Sap).
[Avatar]
Cpt Hawaiian

Messages: 199,
Joined: Sep 12, 2010,
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Offline

[Avatar]
Cpt Hawaiian

Messages: 199,
Joined: Sep 12, 2010,
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Offline
Interesting thoughts. But I'm not so sure the speed buff is all that overboard against saps, really. A speeder even before the buff could hit a battery from beyond the battery's range, because the speeder could move 4 spaces already. As you say, speeders may now be able to hide behind PTs and still be in range, but how often do saps leave batteries with no tank or marine in front of it? If anything, the speeder will merely be able to position itself quicker and earlier, and move around large maps better.

After the battle has progressed, there will be plenty of enemy units around to exert their zone of control and basically negate all the extra movement points the speeder has. So I think the buff only helps early game, which is where titans can almost immediately lose a game in some cases because they can't get to the bases before the other races. (think butterfly and peanut) In fact, now on butterfly you can cover the base with a speeder before a Khral can simply steal it with no resistance from you. You can still warp in, but you have to defend it from all the swarmers and garudas that will soon be coming in. So this buff is PERFECT in this case, because there will now be a battle for that base. It doesn't guarantee the titan a base, it only stops the other race from what would have been a guaranteed steal for them. AWESOME

I do agree that more buffs for titans specifically against Krahls are in order still, and I still think Krahls are overpowered against Titans, as you have all said. Wouldn't it be cool if the assimilator had a cooldown ability called "uproot," which could pull up a buried underling from an adjacent uncovered spot? If that's too much, how about "deep laser" which can blast a buried underling for 3 damage. I dunno, I still think Titans need serious buffs agains Khrals as everyone seems to agree.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Aug 17, 2011 22:58


---------------------------------------
MODERATOR has spoken.
[WWW]
[Avatar]
Cpt Hawaiian

Messages: 199,
Joined: Sep 12, 2010,
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Offline

[Avatar]
Cpt Hawaiian

Messages: 199,
Joined: Sep 12, 2010,
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Offline
on another note, titans do beat saps on certain maps like Chato hill, where only a very perfect game by saps can give you a chance. I have beaten high level titans as saps on Chato Hill, but only by extremely calculated gangups against PTs blocking the two edges and such. I played Penelope as saps vs. her titans on Chato Hill and tried to be tricky with marauders out of range of view, but it is just impossible against someone who really knows what they are doing, and that was one of my rare ranked losses. A possible solution to this is to extend the map with empty spaces on either side of the hill. Now mauraders can get behind the lines much easier and wreak havoc.

The statistics say it all, 6 Titans in top 50. And high ranked Titan players who simply refuse to play against Khrals on certain maps. More needs to be done, but the developers are responding and doing things, so there is hope!

Before we hate on the speeder buff, let's all try it out and see first. I will try to play several matches as sapiens against good titan players and report. I think the change is fine right now, but let's try it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Aug 17, 2011 22:54


---------------------------------------
MODERATOR has spoken.
[WWW]
igniz13

Messages: 8,
Joined: Apr 02, 2011,
Offline

igniz13

Messages: 8,
Joined: Apr 02, 2011,
Offline
How do K beat T? K's few good vs heavy and the majority of the T fleet is heavy. They have a horrid match-up.

S vs T is supposed to be a good match-up for the S, but it's actually just horrid. PT's are hard to kill with nothing to stand-up against them. Eclipses eat Helicopters. Heli's are fairly horrible. Marauder's are only good against light and even then they're not great.

Then there's the S v K, which is just as bad. Limited anti-air when you're on the defensive, nothing good in bad terrain against swarmers and garudas, your tanks can't do anything but get in the way. AA is horrid over-all. Marines are rubbish against K tanks.

Sapiens are the ones who needed the buffs, sure they have some niche tactics and values but over-all they've got the odds stacked against them in so many ways. Oh and their ships are fairly poor of the cost.

I don't care how many High ranked Titans there are, there's a stupid amount of titans out there and titans have such strong match-ups on so many levels.
[Avatar]
waxoid

Messages: 442,
Joined: Aug 07, 2010,
Location: Seattle, WA
Offline

[Avatar]
waxoid

Messages: 442,
Joined: Aug 07, 2010,
Location: Seattle, WA
Offline
A bit of a long explanation, but one of the root reasons K beats T in the end I think is that underling pop-up is just very effective against them (they have no flying units like the heli that are immune, ant popping and hitting say an eclipse is almost always very advantageous point and position wise.) Combined with swarmers and wyrms and making use of terrain, Khral can generally keep the edge and pressure up against speeders, eclipses and plasmas (speeder buff now impacts this, however.) If stymied from getting to wyrms with speeders or eclipses, Titans must build walkers to defend space, and then scramble desperately to defend them which is very hard against underling/swarmer/wyrm combos, and the loss of points when the fragile walkers are then brought down seals the game.

You say "S vs T is supposed to be a good matchup for the S" but really T more commonly beats S (depends on terrain); the healer conversion direction (S reprograms T who assimilates K who infects S) goes in the opposite direction of actual race dominance, i.e. helps balance by giving the underdog an option the advantaged race doesn't have. So you are right, helis are not nearly as effective against Titans as they are against Khral. You underestimate the effectiveness of marauders a bit perhaps, there's a lot to explore with marauders (healing rotations etc.), but yes something else is needed in support against plasmas (battery, two tanks attacking with gangup, etc.)

And completing the circuit, S does beat K usually, as the experienced players insist. Your anti-air is marines and helis both, good on the defensive, on the offensive, in a house, with a mouse, on a train, in the rain. If bad terrain means mountains and forest that is only better for marines. Pinzers can beat marines, sure, but they'll be torn apart by your helis, so you won't end up seeing many of them because K will be so desperate to have some Garuda to answer your helis. Just make sure your helis bounce back behind your marines generally, and have lots of marines.

Finally, you say "Sapien ships are poor for the cost", also wrong, Destroyers can blow the complete crap out of the other naval units. You may need heli support to counter Titan's Hydro range, so that can be an interesting battle and maybe go against you on some maps, but I don't generally relish going up against Destroyers with K's Leviathans, even with the cost bonus.

All told, hang in there, lots to learn in this game, certainly still learning myself..
Forum Index » General Discussion
Powered by JForum 2.1.9 © - 2020-04-14 v124 - UniWar website