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Fixing Titan-Sapien balance
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waxoid

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waxoid

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lantry's thread on teleport got me going on this again. Per that thread, Titan-Sap is a fun battle, but if Sapiens don't figure out how to do some damage (e.g. marauder spam) or steal a base early it's an inevitable and somewhat boring loss to the walker.

I don't know that you can have the range unit hierarchy (walker 5, battery 4, wyrm 3) as part of the race balance and not have the race with 5 range not want to use/abuse that. So I keep musing about how to fix Sapiens/Titans, but I think of tweaks that increase Sap ability to sustain an attack (rather than ways to make Titans play more aggressively/recklessly – I just don't think they're going to want to risk the expensive walker), along the lines of:

* revisit EMP – engineers had move-and-fire in the past and I think that was found too strong, but maybe there's a compromise or alternative? This is awkward and I doubt devs would love implementing, but something is needed, so maybe engineer can choose a direction for EMP and in that direction it extends 3 hexes, to cover just 1 more hex in that direction (could be 3 more in that direction). This might unbalance Scramble but oh well.
* make assimilator UV attack affect only Khral. This would give Sap necessary help in battery vs. walker duels in particular – walker ability to always destroy rather than just wound a battery that attacks it via UV support is just insult to injury in that matchup. And in general, Sapiens is the disadvantaged race yet Titan is the one with the more powerful healer special ability? UV feels o/p in dense battles here.
* some sapper-like special for marines that hobbles a neighboring Titan tank – maybe it's fully combat functional but can't move for a turn, or has some negative modifiers for a turn, would have to playtest and find something here... this would be hard to get right but something to explore.

smaller stat tweaks, which I think could be done yesterday:
* bump battery attack vs. ground heavy to 11. who thinks battery is overpowered? It's already stronger than walker vs. g. light; it doesn't fire as far as walker, but say Saps have figured out how to fire nasty ordinance
* increase engineer mobility to 7 or 8. Slightly beneficial to sap vs. khral as well, unfortunately, but needed to keep engineers alive longer vs. Titans by scrambling onto more forest.

I say all this as a Titan player. Who wants more of a challenge vs Saps...

random: another change that could be made yesterday is Pinzer 2 not 1 vs. aerial...
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nfong

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nfong

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UV, battery, and engineer changes all sound great. (also would be great if UV affected buried lings )
How about giving the marine a special ability against only titans? They lose one or two health, but their ground heavy attack increases to 8 or so. (10 is the ground heavy of a sap tank). And of course this ability would last for only 1 round, and I think a cooldown time of 7 or so rounds would be appropriate.
It seems that marines are only really being utilized against krahls/saps because of their AA; so why not make them more viable against titans?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 28, 2011 16:42


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waxoid

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waxoid

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yeah that was my thought for the 3rd bullet, something for marines. It could be just some way of delivering a little damage to g. heavy, or my other thought was to try some sabotage special (could imagine a wrench icon on a tank and it gets -1/-1 with -1 mobility or something for a couple of turns) but that might be too hokey.

What do you think about the state of EMP? It seems broke to me, such a niche thing. I snared a speeder with one in some game awhile ago, but that's about it. I don't recall seeing it used against me effectively ever, and only used against me at all on Scramble. I guess that makes it about as useful as plague, also a fun niche thing, but not in the same class as UV. Yet, it's explicitly Sapien's secret weapon against Titans so natural to want to make it more effective somehow. Of course engineer mobility bump alone would be helpful for that.

Aside: I did have one epic EMP in a FFA game though. Not that they couldn't have prevented it, but it was gorgeous and game-winning. Octal war and three Titan players had a ton of plasmas battling in the middle over the center bases; the group realized I had four bases and too many batteries and surged this sea of plasmas toward me, and I think I blanked 5 or 6 plasmas with a single EMP by an engineer on the edge. Should've taken a screen shot. Ground them all down with the batteries after that. Went on to win with a late game stage of marauder spam to tear down walkers once the center had become a no man's land. Put a statue of that engineer in the center of the new colony.
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nfong

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Would an engineer mobility and defense buff be balanced? I'm thinking the engineer should have enough defense to survive a speeder attack on normal hexes. For most of my TvS, I always use speeders to snipe lone engineers, so this change would require me to use 2 speeders for sniping. And that speeder speed buff over the summer didn't help matters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 29, 2011 16:19


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Cpt Hawaiian

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Cpt Hawaiian

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Hmmm, honestly I think the tank buff was good enough in balancing this matchup.

To me, engineers are quite powerful against titans already. They control mechas excellently as mechas are so slow. If there were a buff to engineer speed, they could chase down mechas through forests, and i don't think that's good. I have used EMP quite effectively to achieve kills. The main use for it is against plasma tanks, really. (I've also used EMP to take down a zone of control area to slip a marauder behind the lines, attack weaker units behind, slide a marine through to go for a base steal, attack a EMP'd unit from several sides with higher gangup bonus because it can't zone of control and you can get behind it easier, etc.) Although you will see the most creative use of EMP in team games, you still can't live without it in 1 vs. 1.

I have even beat some pretty good players (2000+) on Chato Hill as Sapiens vs. Titans, back when tanks only did 9 heavy damage. Granted, the matchups were close and had several close calls with tank vs. plasma, but all in all it was very even and technically sound. (although i admit that a supreme titan player should beat a sap on chato hill because it is quite easy to turtle)

The key with sap vs. titan is simply to pressure constantly, and then get batteries out immediately after a plasma is out. (or even before with marine wall or protection etc.). Then gang up is everything with taking down plasmas with tanks and EMP. It's true that you don't want titans to have time or safety to get a walker up. However, on certain occasions you can still take a premature walker out with two batteries moving into position against it. 2 vs. 1 will take it out, and even if you lose one battery you have a 200 credit advantage from the exchange.

I dunno, I think it's not too bad in most areas vs. titans. Leader boards have very few titans in the top at all compared to khral and saps. I am willing to play anyone as a sapien vs. a titan for fun just to test it all out, though.

I think the real issue is that certain maps cater to certain race capabilities better than others and provide an unfair advantage. To me, perhaps an additional unit added to each race that addresses their weakness in a weak map for their capability might be the proper solution.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Nov 29, 2011 16:31


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waxoid

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waxoid

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Nfong – speeder, eclipse, walker – I am flexible when it comes to sniping hapless engineers. I think that's a good thought – bumping defense to 1 would be sufficient, not really material to khral-sap (swarmer/garuda need 2 hits anyway, pinzer still 1-hits, change would only affect wyrm.)

Cpt – if engineer mobility goes to 7, it can't give any huge advantage chasing down mechas in forest because mechas are 7. Might be a reason not to do 8 though (or might not). Using EMP to defuse zone control is definitely a fun one – that's easy to forget when you are playing the Titan side.
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waxoid

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waxoid

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Meanwhile, happy to play demo matches. In terms of maps, I think it is pretty general, here's how I group them:

Unbalanced: Dead Monk, Wild Plains, Chato, Desolate, Bog, Forest Walk (though opening vs. Blue Sap is sharp/dangerous), Gold Rush (though there is some interesting play with marauders)

Bigger maps where I don't really know, but don't suspect things are fundamentally different: Rubicon (even worse, likely), River Runs, Laguna, Great Wall (new version).

Foresty maps that I'm curious about and would be happy to test more: Jungle, Hurtgen. If I've played those they were junk games.

Naval maps are a different beast: Montevideo feels unbalanced for the same reasons as above. Piriapolis maybe the same, don't know, heli danger to hydros. Land Bridge seems Titan-favored but for different reasons (and probably need to test more of what Sap can do with helis on that map.) GreenIsle is broken/unbalanced in favor of Sap due to heli parked off naval spawn base.

Scramble also odd – may be even or slight Titan, unless there is a broken opening for blue sap.

I may have forgotten some ranked map. See what nfong thinks on these.

There are few 'preferred Titans' players in the top 100 it's true (being #64 is high enough to be the #8 'Titan' listed, heh). I'm not sure the frequency of "preferred race" in the top 100 means all that much in terms of specific balance issues. The cynic in me suspects it has more to do with which races offer easier/faster point mining opportunities, which is clearly Sap and Khral. Though ichiro is an example of an enterprising player who did a lot of Titan mining, on Dead Monk (allowing only Sapiens), and he's up there at #46. Titans tends to take more patience in general, can be tedious having to read ant sign every turn, etc. Obviously would be interested to hear from players in the top 50 how they feel about Sap-Titan balance though.

Happy to do demo matches against either the top list, to demonstrate imbalance, or Jungle or Hurtgen, to test. Would be happy to find I just haven't played the right Sapien opponents...
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Cpt Hawaiian

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Cpt Hawaiian

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Interesting points you make. I guess it is true that leaderboards are hard to trust when everyone just farms and there are no forced random matchups. And what you say is true that titans are not the ideal quick farmers lol. I created another account to only do random matchups but there is some bug that puts me in 5 games at a time! So anyway, the only option left for me is to farm hahaha.

Let's do some test matchups on jungle. That's one where I don't think saps can beat titans, and I wouldn't mind trying to see if it can be done. (my chato hill games were born out of same idea. In fact my only loss as saps came against Penelope, which was a farmed game I accepted at great risk lol. Needless to say everyone was excited to join my games with me as saps and they as titans haha).

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nfong

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nfong

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I definitely agree with alot of those maps you bring up, waxoid - dead monk, wildplains, etc all seem to be quite imba for titans. Rubicon and Great wall also seem Titan favored IMO.
My favorite map ATM is definitely starvation. I think it's definitely one of the more balanced maps, especially since saps will be able to apply good early pressure against titans with marauders.
I'm not too sure about maps like scramble or jungle, though. I don't really enjoy playing on smaller maps
I would think jungle may be sap favored; early marine/marauder pressure with battery later seems very strong.
I'll post some more thoughts later when I have time.

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waxoid

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latest quick thoughts
- Laguna Niguel: got matched into this so had a chance to look more closely at it. When I played it again I remembered how close those bases start together, woah, so there is a lot of sharp potential in the opening for Sapiens to blitz, which they will have to attempt. I saw some dangerous looking lines when I was evaluating my moves, but my opponent opened slightly cautious (built a pair of engineers in the top bases) and once walker is up this is sort of a dream map for Titans with the easily defended dividing ridge and the natural path diagonal down for the walker to walk and put pressure on the enemy base that is inside the ridge.
- Jungle: Cpt and I played and he won it nicely as Sap, feels like Khral vs. Titan on that map where it is very difficult to defend the forested base. I made a bad mistake or two, had a bad die roll, and have some ideas of things to try but it is certainly a map custom made for the EMP. Wow when people complain that marines have only +2 mobility while mechas have +1 defense and teleport, they should play this map to remind of the deep difference between being able to move 2 forest hexes at a time and only 1.
- Scramble: Happened to look at the opening a little more, and I'm feeling like it really is Sap favored, it's just a very narrow path that's easy to mess up. Still an interesting one, I think perfectly reasonable to have in ranked as is based on what I understand so far.

Meanwhile, on an off-topic note, that Laguna game concluding marked a 120th win and a first time popping into the top 50 so on the ladder front page and one more Titan player in the top 50 for you Cpt, woot. (At least for the moment anyway... refresh quick before this other game concludes heh)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Dec 21, 2011 09:10

cogger

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I actually think emp is fine as it is, and i like it more than the uv. It has the ability to dish out WAY more damage, what with tanks getting free shots on plasmas. A slight increase of mobilty would be nice. I am saying this as a sapiens player.
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waxoid

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waxoid

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Fair enough, but more compelling if you feel confident to challenge me ranked to one of the maps I describe as unbalanced (basically any normal ranked map excepting Jungle, Scramble or GreenIsle), in order to demonstrate how effective EMP can be?

Not that I have an axe to grind, just that I've described elsewhere (http://www.uniwar.com/forum/posts/list/0/1093.page#8065) the importance in my mind of staying focused on balance tuning over time, for the health of the game and community. (And/or if people can prove me wrong, I'll have learned something )
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Well, this is coming from a pretty old member of Uniwar lol.

But I agree that Sapiens, at least vs. Titans, could use some kind of adjustment.

I've made suggestions...a lot of them, through the times, but none have really been implemented. I like some of your ideas man, and you'd probably enjoy some of the ones I have given in the forums, but the devs are pretty staunch in their decisions.

It kinda broke my heart when the heli's and engineers were nerfed. I loved having those abilities, and playing against them. But you could lump me in the group of people who find titans as a race, overpowered.

But -shrug- such is life.

If they ever revisit the idea of Uniwar2, though...I'd love to see some of my ideas implemented (carrier units, etc...there's a thread somewhere).

Enough random rambling though
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waxoid

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waxoid

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thanks. Well the very nerfs to helis and engineers you're talking about were designed to tweak balance issues, although in the heli case more about sap-khral balance (which saps still generally win today despite the series of nerfs, including marine anti-air). And stuff like reduced ant pop-up bonus were done to help Titans survive Khral (who they are definitely not overpowered versus). So while I don't think the devs are spending bandwidth to add new units or such, which would be very hard to land and re-tweak for balance, they have continued to make small tweaks for balance and the Sap-Titan version of the rock-scissors-paper just seems due for a little attention. cheers
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