Building a unit should not be undoable

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Feb 07, 2012 06:43

Subject: Building a unit should not be undoable

gares

Messages: 6,
Joined: Feb 16, 2011,
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You can build, say, a speeder to see what is around and then undo and take decision knowing what you were able to see when the speeder was there. I guess this is not intended.

You should be allowed to choose only a unit with greater vision after undoing.
Alternatively undoing a "build" action should be completely forbidden, but this may be a little usability problem.

Cheers

Feb 07, 2012 14:26

Subject: Re:Building a unit should not be undoable

droidfreak36

Messages: 183,
Joined: Jan 23, 2012,
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I agree with this, but you should at least leave in a "confirm" option (before the unit can see), because sometimes you might accidentally choose the wrong unit. It's really annoying when I accidentally press the wrong thing and can't undo/unconfirm.

DroidFreak, the roboticist who plays as Khrals.

(Or Titans now that I realize how legit they are)

Feb 07, 2012 14:37

Subject: Re:Building a unit should not be undoable

Cpt Hawaiian

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Joined: Sep 12, 2010,
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This "bug" is actually sort of an advanced technique. All the best players use this.

Really it's not a balance issue since every race can do it. There is a very slight advantage against Khraleans who can rush so fast (because Garuda is 350 whereas other two races vision unit is 250). Although the swarmer still has 5 vision and is 250.

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Feb 07, 2012 15:05

Subject: Re:Building a unit should not be undoable

simsverd

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Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
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Yea, but you are missing the point.. Its not logical to be able to build, get vision and then cancel... no matter how fair to all it is..

But this is ofc something the devs are fully aware of, so they would not call it bug, but rather design.
If there are many posting their opinion on this i will make a poll, to get some statistical feedback.

Moderator of gamechat and forum. Tourney admin.

Send me a PM here or invite me to a game if you want to ask me something, suggest a map for tourney or just wanna play a game

Feb 07, 2012 19:31

Subject: Re:Building a unit should not be undoable

Cpt Hawaiian

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well, if they remove this feature, it would certainly change the strategy on maps like laguna. If a Titan player gained vision to certain tiles, it would force a khral for example to at least build an ant on some back bases to ensure protection.

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Feb 07, 2012 22:01

Subject: Re:Building a unit should not be undoable

waxoid

Messages: 442,
Joined: Aug 07, 2010,
Location: Seattle, WA
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Well, I like it fine, without this it creates more potential 'gotcha' openings or situations and/or just increases guesswork where the player who wins is the one who guessed right. Plus I like being able to undo when I make a mistake, and I don't want to confirm every time I build (yuck). Bases can work as vision outposts – leave the explanation at that.

Feb 08, 2012 04:44

Subject: Re:Building a unit should not be undoable

droidfreak36

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Joined: Jan 23, 2012,
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It sounds like you guys still want the vision from bases but don't necessarily want to build a unit for it. Here's something that does both: Get rid of the undo-vision bug/feature and instead give each base a sight range of 3 or 4. That way the bases will be able to see if any enemies (Mechas/Underlings) are sneaking up but you won't have to build and undo (which makes no sense and wastes time) to get it. This would help players who don't use undo-vision already as well, but I don't think it's fair that some players get an advantage from something that is not a strategy, merely a bug exploit.

DroidFreak, the roboticist who plays as Khrals.

(Or Titans now that I realize how legit they are)

Feb 08, 2012 07:40

Subject: Re:Building a unit should not be undoable

rwieczor84

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Joined: Dec 24, 2010,
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undo-vision bug is good becouse bases have only 1 vision. Many times its waste of credits to build unit and keep it at base. This will create situations when attacking will be very risky. While defending you will keep close near your bases and it will be safe tactic.
When you will try to march ahead with all troops titan could tele behind your base and capture it easy, also khral could resurface even 3 hex behind your base and you didn't see it!
While undo-vision will protect you offensive.

Feb 08, 2012 09:26

Subject: Re:Building a unit should not be undoable

simsverd

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Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
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droidfreak36 wrote: It sounds like you guys still want the vision from bases but don't necessarily want to build a unit for it. Here's something that does both: Get rid of the undo-vision bug/feature and instead give each base a sight range of 3 or 4.

A better option would be that base vision is unchanged (1) if not chosen, but when clicking the base you temporarely gets 5 vision.

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Send me a PM here or invite me to a game if you want to ask me something, suggest a map for tourney or just wanna play a game

Feb 08, 2012 14:10

Subject: Re:Building a unit should not be undoable

gares

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Joined: Feb 16, 2011,
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Well, I opened the bug, and I'm summing up the pros/cons of fixing this bug:

1) newcomers are at disadvantage (+)
2) more guessing, less strategy (-)
3) makes no sense to give bases only 1 hex of vision if you can cheat (+)

Now my comments.

To 3) a solution of giving bases 3 hex of vision was proposed. At the beginning it seemed reasonable to me, but at the end it is not. The game is about taking/stealing bases. Making it harder is not going to make the game nicer. Even giving the base a temporary vision of 4 when selected has the same problem.

The observation 2) is a bit silly. Our current strategies may become inapplicable, but new ones will emerge, not necessarily based on guessing. Moreover risk is part of any strategy game, in my opinion. Is calculating the risk the hard part.

The 1) observation is the most relevant one. It is not part of the manual. Newcomers are at disadvantage. Why should it be the case?

All in all, it seems just a bug to me.

Feb 08, 2012 16:39

Subject: Re:Building a unit should not be undoable

droidfreak36

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Joined: Jan 23, 2012,
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rwieczor84: Yes, I agree that base-stealing should be stopped, but I don't think undo-vision is the best way to do it. Increasing the sight range of bases will stop base-stealing without the need to use undo-vision.

simsverd: This doesn't really make sense unless your goal is to ostracize newcomers to the game, which is certainly not what the most of us want. All it would accomplish is giving players who know about it an advantage over those who don't (like the undo-vision).

gares:
I disagree about the object of this game. The object is to capture bases through the use of strategies, not to steal them by exploiting a peculiarity of the game (bases having 1 vision). Increasing base vision will stop base-stealing without hindering taking them in other ways. With increased base vision players are free to carry out their strategies without having to leave vision units back at the bases.
As I mentioned above, I agree that undo-vision and click-vision (simsverd's idea) both are bad because they put newcomers at a disadvantage. I am a bit of a newcomer myself, and I wouldn't even know about undo-vision if not for the forum.

DroidFreak, the roboticist who plays as Khrals.

(Or Titans now that I realize how legit they are)

Feb 08, 2012 17:14

Subject: Re:Building a unit should not be undoable

cogger

Messages: 46,
Joined: Dec 20, 2011,
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I have to disagree here, but i see your point. Its not really cheating, because anyone can do it, and each race has a large vision unit. If you cant afford that unit, well its just like not being able to afford a unit for any other reason. Plus being able to take back a unit is important for more than extra vision. Some devices that support uniwar(like mine) have very small screens. I frequently select the wrong unit due to clicking too quickly or my thumb slipping. This could cost one the whole match. Example. A surprise underling attack on one of you bases. You have a turn to bring out a unit. You can afford a plasma, which will take little to no damage even from gangup, but you thumb slips and you bring out a mecha. You lose that base and you lose JUST because of that slip.

Feb 09, 2012 00:51

Subject: Re:Building a unit should not be undoable

gares

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Joined: Feb 16, 2011,
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@cogger: Adding a "are you really sure you want to build X" confirmation dialog is easy, and should be clearly part of the fix.
Or as someone suggested, the fog of war could be updated only if the user does not undo the unit creation action.

@droidfreak36: Surprise is a strategy too. Leaving your home unattended is a bad strategy, isn't it? Not in this game with this bug open.
Moreover every strategy exploits a peculiarity of the game, like units not crossing mountains, being cheaper or healing faster.
The point is that this peculiarity (that bases have vision 1 only for newcomers) is not documented, and is clearly not intended.

Moreover, in addition to my previous comments, there is an option for disabling fog of war, but only for unrated games.
People that like to see all what happens could just ask this to be allowed in rated games too. I personally don't.

Cheers

Feb 09, 2012 08:06

Subject: Re:Building a unit should not be undoable

starik

Messages: 16,
Joined: Jan 31, 2012,
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Although I enjoy exploiting this bug myself, I agree.

Don't give a new unit vision until it can't be taken back, and change base vision to 3. Problem solved.

Feb 18, 2012 18:22

Subject: Re:Building a unit should not be undoable

yemrot

Messages: 27,
Joined: Nov 11, 2011,
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i dont think an unattended base should be given more than one vision. It is strategy sneaking up and "stealing" bases as you put it. If you dont want that to happen, put a unit on your base. As far as the "bug" goes, i like how it is, but wouldnt be upset if it was changed. (until my fat thumbs built the wrong unit) but i ABSOLUTLEY DO NOT want the "confirm build unit" option. that would be truly annoying.

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