waxoid
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waxoid
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Just for fun, here's a light snack puzzle... (not too hard for experienced players, but maybe people will find a better move than I did anyway). A typical example of how teleport attacks can play out. Red Titan teleport attack on blue Titans who were a bit out of position; this is the 2nd turn after, so most of the red mechas are back online, occupying nice mountain spaces, threatening to attack and constraining blue space and movement (e.g., the 10 speeder in the middle can't currently attack anything.) Blue wounded some of the teleporters in the first round after, but now red speeders have joined the attack, killing a mecha or two and further clamping down on space, and red walkers are stepping up as well, with blue walkers stuck on forest. Blue can certainly do some damage, but will it be in return for painful damage to and/or loss of walkers?
Blue to play – what should the move be?
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Cpt Hawaiian
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Cpt Hawaiian
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I would probably teleport two Capital G's into the chat box.
Honestly, did you get out of this situation and keep the game going? Do you have a large credit advantage at this point? I will give this little situation some thought.
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Cpt Hawaiian
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Cpt Hawaiian
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it seems a mass retribution teleport invasion might be the answer, but let me look at this for a bit and think.
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Cpt Hawaiian
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Cpt Hawaiian
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Hmm, okay, being that I don't know what is in red's backfield (do you know?) I would not warp in. What makes this hard is that your front two walkers are in forests. it makes a walker tradeoff not favorable as well. So all that is left is minimizing damage.
I would kill 7 str red walker on far left with the two 10 mechas on west. Move base mecha into that now-empty mountain. Use 5 mecha to move to forest and attack 3 mecha in mountain (probably weaken to 1). Move assimilator down one space (into range of red walker, ugh!!). Then move lowest walker in forest left one space. Now move 10 mecha in forest down/left to forest where walker just was and attack 7 walker in mtn. Middle speeder move into forest and attack same red mecha, finish off and bump out one space to the right. Move upper walker in forest one space left where speeder was. Use remaining walker in middle to range attack 8 speeder near top. Have top 10 mecha move down/right into forest and finish off that speeder. Move speeder on base to the right and attack 10 str. mecha. Build a speeder in that base. Build a mecha in lower base.
One note, on the next turn red can easily blast away the mecha in the top forest and expose the walker to a hit there as well, so it might be worth warping in mecha (currently on base) somewhere near the red walkers to necessitate one red speeder to stay back, but it would only work if red backfield is totally empty. And even then, a good player would probably ignore it and charge ahead. It just looks like GG to me. Fun little challenge though.
What did you do and how did it turn out?
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waxoid
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waxoid
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Nice one, right? At first, I was worried I hadn't considered the effects of the speeder attack well enough, and that *this* would finally be the game that proved I was too cavalier about teleport attacks, which I tend to assume never work.
I knew red had spent more on mechas and speeders and so didn't have a 3rd walker; warp attack came immediately after I built my 3rd walker, which was good timing for red. I expected he had a couple more mechas built which turned out to be correct.
Very close to the sequence of moves you describe, but getting a bit more out of the first speeder. The after shot tells the tale and makes the red offensive momentum look much more illusory:
Blue now up 700 in material and set to reap the rest of the donated red material (mechas), with little counterplay.
I think if it was your game you'd have been sufficiently motivated to find the additional wrinkle. Hop mecha across from base to join the other mecha in clearing 7 mecha on SE (though there is a small ~8% chance this could fail... fortunately it didn't.) This frees speeder to step out and hit 6 speeder and then move toward walkers, which yields benefits:
* Enables destruction of both red speeders in the north, locking in material gain
* Blue speeder is inside walker range, and can't be taken in an attempt to get material back
* Threatens red walkers - it is now blue threatening to use walkers to clear obstacles and attack enemy walkers, not red
* Blocks 10 speeder from moving into the fray in the north
One part of your suggestion may be an improvement: building speeder instead of mecha in top base. There is a 2x +2 mecha attack from mountain there which made it pretty assured red could get one mecha swipe at top walker, which he did. A speeder might have (barely) survived, and that may be incrementally better. But it didn't matter much, the walker healed, mop up after this.
Teleport attacks are very hard to win, and yet frequently attempted in TvT mainly (a) because of this illusion of how effective they *look* like they will be, and (b) a lot of players don't react calmly and defensively enough (esp. in first round after, when movement isn't restricted), so they often succeed even when they shouldn't.
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Cpt Hawaiian
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Cpt Hawaiian
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ah yes, very nice. nice little strategy piece! with that credit lead and positioning it's definitely a win!
yes, it's true that often a warp-in is most often a failure. I have been rather successful with it in the right situations, though.
I think the key to warp-ins that novices forget are really forecasting the response in terms of units and threats. For example, warping 4 mechas into mountains when 5 units can instantly retaliate makes the move pointless. And warping near Plasmas is instant sacrifice so only must be done to prevent a base steal prevention, block, etc.
I have used it in a high level match on Forest Walk T vs. T to immediately surround 2 early backfield walkers. It felt a little strange to spend those few turns pumping out mechas in the back while he sat and got two walkers out, but I thought it would work as long as he didn't build enough mechas to protect himself, which luckily he didn't. Although the match still went 44 rounds the warp-in definitely made the difference. (2400 rank opponent) The key was that there was enough forest to make retaliation difficult for the opponent, and soon I had a little army all active in the forest around him.
I see a lot of players warp into mountains thinking that will be great, not realizing that there are two turns of retaliation in addition to the fact that titans aren't built for pressuring and rushing. So once they are in the mountains, then what? haha
The only truly effective warp in I have seen is to almost completely surround walkers or to hit a base with backup from friendly walkers and heavies.
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waxoid
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waxoid
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You're right I shouldn't be too blanket in statements about teleport attacks failing, although I do think beginning players should start by assuming that will be the case unless there are clear material or strategic reasons why not (certainly, teleport attacks are very common in accelerating the *ending* of games when Titans have established clear material superiority by other means previously, etc.)
In TvT, there is an arms race aspect, where if the opponent is spamming mechas you can't just blithely churn out walkers. Having some mechas of your own positioned near your walkers (and esp. if your walkers are still near your base) you will be pretty defensible.
For further fun, I told you I took screenshots through the FFA AlohaBowl game we did, here's a shot showing a teleport attack of mine (green) against orange Titans, which was successful. I traded 15 or so(?) mechas and took down 2 walkers (with some help from blue), so a wash in material but decisive otherwise. Orange was dominating blue sap with walkers, and I needed time to finish red in north and didn't want to face a big standoff against orange walkers. The attack disrupted orange and he surrendered soon after the north was settled.
and a turn later showing walkers gone, and blue back on his feet ready to give orange more trouble...
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Cpt Hawaiian
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Cpt Hawaiian
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that's awesome. yes, that's another good example of complete surrounding walkers. it's true, the usual effect of a proper warp-in is still usually close to break even in credit swap, but the disruption is where the advantage comes to the warp-in player. i suppose it's balanced then haha. but definitely only useful for advanced players!!
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droidfreak36
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droidfreak36
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Do you guys think it is a good idea to surround a Walker with 5 Mechas if it has a Speeder next to it providing an escape route? In my situation it can't escape very far away, but there also are significant enemy troops nearby, so the Mechas might get killed before I can use them. At worst I'd waste 500 credits to buy several turns for my forces to operate unopposed, so I decided to go for it. The map is TugOWars3, and each player has naval support attacking the other player's clump of 5 bases, so I think the chance to capture bases without losing my own is probably worth the cost in this case.
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DroidFreak, the roboticist who plays as Khrals.
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waxoid
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waxoid
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As I say here, usually no I think, especially with plenty of enemy troops in the area, but then again a lot of opponents won't act correctly so it becomes just a gamble based on how you think they will react (many overreact, so distraction strategies work perfectly well). Even completely surrounding a walker, the opponent just has to knock off 1 mecha and the walker can move out in that direction (unless trapped in canyon etc). Even when banking on distraction, you should feel confident that the distraction yields real victories – e.g. the walker really does need to move, and that one turn that it doesn't fire allows a capture attempt to succeed (or something). Meaning, consider the possibility that your opponent can mostly ignore the teleport attack, chip away a bit at the mechas, insert blockers, and maybe only move the walker in the first round after (or not have to move it at all), but that's it. If it ends up being a trade of 500 to prevent a walker from firing for one turn, that's generally only worth it if you really get a capture out of it that turn. How I see it anyway.
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droidfreak36
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droidfreak36
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In this case it definitely requires some serious consideration to defeat my attack. Moving past the speeder the Walker can't get far due to a wall of mountains, plus the enemies are poorly placed to attack that side of the Mecha mob. I suppose if he's clever he could destroy a Mecha on the other side and try to get out that way, but that whole area is pretty cramped with mountains, water, and forest (not to mention Mechas) so I don't think the Walker will easily escape. By the way, the Walker in question was poised to attack my clump of 5 bases, on the opposite side from the enemies. By distracting it I hope to occupy his forces long enough for me to gain a decisive advantage on the other side where there are few enemies (by making him build troops near the Walker) and preoccupy the forces that would otherwise be closing in on my bases. I'll let you know how it turns out.
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DroidFreak, the roboticist who plays as Khrals.
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droidfreak36
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droidfreak36
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A few turns later I've taken 5 bases and covered a sixth with a definite capture next turn. During the same time I lost one base to enemy forces, but the rest are secure for now. This leaves me with 14 of the 20 bases, so I should be able to gain a material advantage and win fairly soon. I'm not sure if my distraction was entirely responsible for the win, but for some reason or other the enemy failed to defend his bases well or press the attack on mine.
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DroidFreak, the roboticist who plays as Khrals.
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waxoid
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waxoid
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The important thing is that victory is at hand.
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