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Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25
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StarryBlink

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StarryBlink

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I agree with above opinions that Kharl become too weak now. Even fighting against Titan now become problematic.

And sure you nerf swarmer too much. Maybe either -1 defence or -1 attack heavy ground should be enough.

Also I think wrym shouldn't be reduced attack ground heavy. As it does only 2hp damage to plasma sound doesn't like an artillery.
The old wrym is already fine IMO.

However the changes in sap. & titan seem to be fine.

Although for titan I think you should buff where is weak. Those are speeder & eclipse.
Mecha is already strong. Now with +1 air attack it become overpowered like re-programed mecha out of the factory.

At last, thanks developer for the balance adjustment we're waiting for so so long
The perfect balance seem too difficult to gain by 1 adjustment.
But the only way to reach is to step forward and try it out.
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simsverd

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simsverd

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my experiance so far :

swarmer and wyrm nerf is making them to weak. wyrm should be restored and perhaps also get +1 air. swarmer should either be restored to previous or only have the defence nerf.

marauder, garuda, pinzer, tank, battery seems good so far, but still think to reduce the move after attack to 5 for battery and increase GH 1

have no opinion on leviathan, engineer, plasma and mecka changes yet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 26, 2015 23:07


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Needle

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Needle

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I also think that swarmers are too weak now. Their defense should be restored to 5 since defense has effect on every constellation, esp. on swarmer against marines where currently swarmers get -4 which is really bad for K vs S.
GOUT

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GOUT

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After playing with the adjusted stats here are my thoughts. The swarmer nerf has made the unit too ineffective. It is too easily killed by any units, the worst scenario being two swarmers taking down a 10hp swarmer. I think its defense definitely needs to go back to 5. I also think that three swarmers should be able to take down a marauder without a problem so its GH attack should probably go back to 5 as well. Reducing the wyrm's GH attack was a pretty big deal for K v T so I don't think returning the swarmer to 5 GH will make khrals too overpowering vs Titans. Also the mecha aerial boost is surprisingly quite effective. If the eclipse gets reduced in price or some buff, I think it is fine to return the swarmer back to the way it was. However, with the weakened swarmer an interesting dynamic occurs in k v k. The pinzer can be used against the swarmer because of its increased aerial attack. And Garuda got a GH boost so that is a good counter to Pinzer. But garudas are still susceptible to ranged attacks by swarmers so it makes an interesting triangle of pinzer - garuda- swarmer. So to keep this dynamic, I think in addition to returning swarmer to its previous stats the Pinzer should get 3 aerial attack (the same as a marine w/o terrain modifiers). This would allow it to be used effectively in k v k but also help the khrals in k v s and would not affect k v t. It also creates a greater difference between pinzer and tank since the tank's defense just got raised, but pinzer aerial attack at 3 would still be substantially lower than the plasma. I have not had time to thoroughly test the new battery, but my gut says +1 GH is needed. This is not as urgent as changing the swarmer IMO though.
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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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I haven't had a chance to play a kvs game yet... But my question is: are swarmers useful as a support piece at all? Post nerf it seems clear they can't be used as a majority piece as they previously were (maybe Garuda is taking that spot?) .. But, if that's what they're gonna be reduced to, then I think a cost reduction might be appropriate. If they stayed the same and cost 200 or 225, I imagine we could all sign off on that? I think personally I would prefer that than a return to their previous stats, I felt like that's all people built in games I played!
Kroeger

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Kroeger

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Thank you everyone for your posts. This is great feedback. We are going to give it more time to let the initial shock wear off. We are all having to adjust our play-styles which is uncomfortable. Hopefully after we adjust, a clearer picture of the situation will appear.

My initial impression is similar to many of yours. Here are some of my thoughts that haven't yet been said. (some had been said)

SvT seems to have improved. The tank's +1 defense and battery's 2-4 range seem to significantly help the saps secure better positions for the posibility of out playing the titan opponent. This being said, I agree that a +1 G.H. might still be needed for the battery. We will give it more time.

I am disappointed that the marauder nerf has not been as effective as I had hoped. A marauder now has a 25ish% chance of soloing a capping mecha which is great (not that difficult with role manipulation), but it is still an extremely strong unit. (and it is now way more powerful against swarmers (more on later)).

KvK is more fun on most maps, but I agree that easily 2 shotting a swarmer with 2 swarmers needs to be fixed and putting it's defense back up to 5 the best solution we have so far, but I want to at least look at other options before resorting to reverting it back.

KvT also seems to have improved. I know people are upset about the swarmer and we may end up changing it back, but it fixes a lot of problems here. The eclipse is much better since it is a strong unit against saps. I think KvT is much more even, but if someone thinks I am wrong, I would love to play a game with them. Invite me to a game and make me the one you think is the weaker race (this goes for any match up). (label the game "balance" and I will prioritize the game so we play through it faster.)

SvS- I haven't played much of this. Has anything changed much in this department? It doesn't seem like we did much to help marauder build up? Can anyone confirm this?

SvK- This is a big problem and needs to be a addressed. The marauder shreds the swarmer now and the buffs to the pinzer and garuda can only make up for this on a few maps. The infector is also stronger with the marauder nerf, but again, it is too map dependent. This needs to be addressed. I would ask that people entertain the idea of fixing this without undoing the swarmer nerf before resorting to that option (i.e. nerfing the marauder more). We want more diversity in units and so far, the swarmer is still being heavily used in games.
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earth

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earth

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Please look to rectify soon, as the net balance is much worse in many scenarios.

Whilst it might be "fun" for some, and please don't take as negative feedback, the main outcome achieved is bigger gap in many battle scenarios now rather than making more balanced.

Immediate recommendations, are restore swarmer and Wyrm please to their full previous stats. I am clearly not alone in this concern, and please don't assume to think it is about adapting play styles.

I still think only one race really benefited after update RE my initial feedback on original forum proposal, and this was already the strongest race (Sapiens).

Khrals have been severaly negativly impacted, and I think you've got too hung up on KvK scenarios here in my opinion.

Suggest in future changes are only a few tweeks too for updatIng stats, so you can really understand the dynamics.

Cheers

Earth

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Nov 27, 2015 23:27

Kroeger

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Kroeger

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Ok. We might try to make 1 or 2 reaction adjustments to offset the pain while we discuss a second balance update.

I know that SvK has serious problems and swarmers get 2 shotted by other swarmers in kvk. What about the other match ups?

Seems like SvT is better?

What about KvT? Was it too much help for the titans or is it pretty even?
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StarryBlink

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StarryBlink

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I played as Kharl vs Titan in a jungle-liked map (225 income, heavy forest ) between the balance adjust.
The enemy is tough. My quick strike with swarmers/ants/pinzer failed. And he manage to gain a walker.

I loss 1850c while enemy loss 1100c. So I try to retreat and use ant-chain-reaction instead.

I spring buried ant. Open hole for 2 swarmers.
But since the balance adjust, 2 swarmers can't kill a walker anymore.
My wrym, beating only 2hp damage to plasma on the sand , failed to break the line.
In the previous, wrym should do 3hp damage to the plasma on the sand.
Then with another unit gang -up I should be able to kill the plasma.

And my titan enemy counter-strike. With my swarmers being reduced their defense.
Eclipse do 9hp damage to my swarmer.
And mecha buff hurt my swarmers really really bad.

So I defeated terribly.
In part , due to my enemy is very strong.
But the latest adjustment also make kharl become too weak, even against titan.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 28, 2015 09:47

unikz

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unikz

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@Kroeger:

If you want to balance S vs K

I would say, adj back the swarmer+1 attack
and reduce the Sap Marine Air attack by-1
unikz

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unikz

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at this moment Marine is too strong vs air unit

1 helicopter+2 marines on mountain can easily fight 3 swarmers or 2 garudas, all 700vs 700-750
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legia

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legia

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Swarmer defence reduction was needed, but HG -1 was to much! Maybe give swarmer +1 GL instead? It would help with marines and mechas direct fight and swarmer would be nice anti-Ground Light unit.
One Marauder still can kill ant and marines with double attack but with 25-30% chance for success it is very unbalanced in mirror games - imagine sap vs sap mirror game where one blue player gets lucky shot and kills marine caping base early on, and second blue player is unlucky and fails - game is lost with just a little bit of luck! It's very unfair. I think damage should get less randomness because while you try to make better balance games would much more depends on luck with damage allocation.

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guinwza

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guinwza

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I argree with legia, this kind of events is unfair especially in ranked and tournament game.in addition I think the new balance which make player need to be more depends on luck is not sound like a deep strategy game for me at all.
doogie63

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doogie63

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Why not make game more like chess? Each unit has equal on other sides units. Example Sapiens Tank equals same as titans plasma_tank which equal Khraleans pinzer. That way more of skill game and not you got the best army. Now its kinda like getting race track for Christmas with red and blue car. After first race you know the red car is faster so now everyone wants red car. Which if you don't get the red car you don't even want to play.

Plus this would even out all maps. If you have a lot of mountains range but no flying pieces your screwed. Then game would be more skill base.
I'm new so I know my words don't matter much. But all I know if I play solo map 8-Close range and I'm titans I don't chance against Khraleans. But if I which it around and I'm the Khraleans I don't even have to pay attention and I can win with ease. Takes no skill to bet titan with Khraleans on that map.

Seem on random games I always get the titans and other guy get Khraleans which I think is very unfair. Should have it set up when you get random game I get to pick who I want. Or both have the same.

But still a very fun game and glad I found it.
Kroeger

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Kroeger

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This is all great feedback. Keep it coming.

I like your suggestion Legia to increase Swarmer's other stats (i.e. G.L.), but this doesn't fix the swarmer getting 2 shotted which is poses a problem in KvK on very spread out maps (i.e. The current one in the tournament).

This is a big deal, but it doesn't have to be a deal breaker. "Wheel of fortune" is kind of an A-typical map. The swarmer could be made to be more like the eclipse with high damage. That would be more fitting for a unit with range and would fix how overpowered the unit was, but it causes lots of problems as we are seeing right now.

Unikz- great point. I have made sure that that is very high on the list to discuss for the 2nd balance update.
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