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Should the unit types be adjusted?
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Is it a good idea to implement a new class of units?
Yes - for the Marauder and Speeder only. 14% [ 1 ]
Yes - for the Marauder, Speeder and long-range units. 14% [ 1 ]
No - the game is fine the way it is. 71% [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 7
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Apercent

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Apercent

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Pinzers have really quick reflexes. When a helicopter or something swoops in, in can pinch on the armor very fast. When it attacks swarmers with a wimpy armor, it baits swarmers into attack and snaps them.

See, it has really hard pinches, but it only gets a couple of shots, which is why it does a lot better vs the slower and weaker swarmers

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Feb 24, 2016 16:12

EVR1022

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EVR1022

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Let me post some of the math about why this helps -

Right now, there are 9 infantry units. However, 3 of them are converted units that are rare. Another 3 are healers. That leaves 3 'primary' infantry units. So a ground light attack value must account for 4 things: How does it impact 1) the Marine 2) the Underling 3) the Mecha and 4) does it one-hit a healer? Since the Marine and Underling have the same defense, and the Mecha is only 1 higher, this is pretty easy to work out.

Likewise, there are only 3 aerial units and 3 aquatic units, so these attack values are relatively easy to balance.

There are 9 (!!!) ground heavy units, with defense values ranging from 4 to 14, so adjusting that attack value at all has big implications.

By adding a new type, and re-distributing some existing units into that type, it will make it far easier to achieve balance. This will be true all the more so when new units and especially new races are added. Without this change we could eventually have 15-20 ground heavy units.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Feb 24, 2016 16:02

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Apercent

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Apercent

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I don't see what's wrong with the current system to justify this change. Sure there's 9 units, but that's really not a lot. That can't even fit a bag of mnms

The reason their is different types is to show you how they are effected by terrain. Maruader gets the same effects as tanks, so it has no reason to be something else

Different units are NOT different classes because of how they are effected by damage (that's what defense and attack stats are for).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Feb 24, 2016 16:16

EVR1022

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EVR1022

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  Apercent wrote:I don't see what's wrong with the current system to justify this change. Sure there's 9 units, but that's really not a lot. That can't even fit a bag of mnms

The reason their is different types is to show you how they are effected by terrain. Maruader gets the same effects as tanks, so it has no reason to be something else

Different units are NOT different classes because of how they are effected by damage (that's what defense and attack stats are for).


I mean, the attack stat is based off the class, so I don't agree with this.

Also, I think it'd be easier to navigate through a forest with a Marauder than a Tank. Perhaps the terrain effects should be modified slightly for the Ground Medium class, but this might do more harm than good.
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Apercent

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Apercent

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I mean, the attack stat is based off the class, so I don't agree with this.

Also, I think it'd be easier to navigate through a forest with a Marauder than a Tank. Perhaps the terrain effects should be modified slightly for the Ground Medium class, but this might do more harm than good.

Firstly, I don't think there should be a terrain modifier for maruader. That would definitely do more harm then good.

Secondly, xavi didn't make maruader GH because he wanted them to not get so hurt by infantry. He did this because they are cars. Although types do effect damage, a unit isn't made into a type so he/she can be less effected by other units.

Also, I don't see why we need g.h changes. Beyond swarmers they would have no real purpose, and xavi could be making something else in that same time

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amidama

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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jul 17, 2016 22:02


Hakumen
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EVR1022

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I guess I don't get the objection - the ground medium classification seems more accurate than ground heavy. A jeep is lighter than a tank, right?

And it would impact far more units than just Swarmers. Each 1 pt adjustment impacts the entire race match up. Being able to fine tune those match ups is a good thing. Balance is the key to any strategy game lasting a long time. It's why chess is still the most popular strategy game.

There are other small adjustments I think would be beneficial besides those I've already mentioned, but 2 or 3 small adjustments at a time is enough - can always make other tweaks later. Right now, helping the Swarmer and the Eclipse is most important.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jul 17, 2016 22:02


Hakumen
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EVR1022

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  amidama wrote:and i didnt get it.
speeder has the defence of 8, and plasma has the defence of 14, but you are saying that swarmer makes the same damage, 2, to each of them?


Scenario 1 - Previously, the Swarmer had a ground heavy attack of 5. One reason this needed to change: A buried underling in a forest resurfaces to attack a Plasma Tank. That's 9 attack (3 base attack + 2 terrain + 4 resurface) vs 14 defense. 63% chance to do 2 damage. Then, Swarmer attacks from a range of 2 with a +3 gang-up bonus (total attack power = 8 ). This is also likely to do 2 damage. Rinse & repeat with another Underling / Swarmer. That Plasma Tank is going down too quickly against the weakest units in the Khralean army. The Swarmer can easily be set up for +3 gang-up by the Underling, the Garuda, and the Pinzer. Add in the Wyrm and that's 5 units that can effectively damage the highest defense unit in the game.

Scenario 2 - Now, the Swarmer only has 4 attack vs ground heavy, and the Speeder has 8 defense. Swarmer attacks Speeder from a range of 2 to avoid a counter attack. 49% chance of 3 damage, 42% chance of 2 damage. Speeder HP down to 7-8. Then, two more Swarmers attack from range of 2, each receiving a +1 gang-up bonus. 17% chance of 2 damage, 58% chance of 3 damage, 24% chance of 4 damage. Speeder usually will end up with 1-2 HP when all is said and done.

So what do you do? Raise the Swarmer attack? That leads back to scenario 1. Lower the Speeder defense? That leads to other, bigger problems.

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amidama

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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jul 17, 2016 22:02


Hakumen
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  amidama wrote:why not to use burried underling? thats a 5-6 damage, underground attack from a forest,
hen swarmers get +3 gang-up as with tank.


Just trying to show how a Swarmer could easily do 2 damage w/ no counter vs Plasma before. It was too strong, especially since it is also the most efficient Walker-killer in the game and could hit the Eclipse and Speeder hard, too. Now, it only does 1 damage to Plasma with +3 gang-up and it's more balanced vs the Eclipse and Walker as well. But - the adjustment, while mostly good, went too far vs the Speeder and Marauder IMO.
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Apercent

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Apercent

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  EVR1022 wrote:
  amidama wrote:why not to use burried underling? thats a 5-6 damage, underground attack from a forest,
hen swarmers get +3 gang-up as with tank.


Just trying to show how a Swarmer could easily do 2 damage w/ no counter vs Plasma before. It was too strong, especially since it is also the most efficient Walker-killer in the game and could hit the Eclipse and Speeder hard, too. Now, it only does 1 damage to Plasma with +3 gang-up and it's more balanced vs the Eclipse and Walker as well. But - the adjustment, while mostly good, went too far vs the Speeder and Marauder IMO.


That only works if you fall for an underling trap (in which case, you deserve the damage)
EVR1022

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EVR1022

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In most cases you use other units to clear the space the underling is on.
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Apercent

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Apercent

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And I still don't think we even need g.h and g.m for the purposes of damage reduction
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  EVR1022 wrote:In most cases you use other units to clear the space the underling is on.


I've heard a lot of high level players saying that TvK is the most balanced matchup currently.

So while I agree with you in premise, it seems in practice it works ?

Or have the people I've heard saying that been very, very wrong ?

SvK meanwhile, I don't think the swarmer GH is quite as important a change ?

(This is kind of off topic, but related)
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