[Search] Search   [Recent Topics] Recent   [Hottest Topics] Hottest   [Login] Login
Fuze is the new op unit
Forum Index » General Discussion
dr. pepper

Messages: 127,
Joined: Aug 08, 2009,
Offline

dr. pepper

Messages: 127,
Joined: Aug 08, 2009,
Offline
Simsverd,

I'd be interesting in hearing your opinion or developers on the comparison I laid out re: fuze vs. mantisse. The same comparison applies fuze vs. salamander.

The fuze seems really weak now.
[Avatar]
simsverd

Messages: 921,
Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
Offline

[Avatar]
simsverd

Messages: 921,
Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
Offline
  dr. pepper wrote:Simsverd,

I'd be interesting in hearing your opinion or developers on the comparison I laid out re: fuze vs. mantisse. The same comparison applies fuze vs. salamander.

The fuze seems really weak now.

I disagree. Its weaker than mantisse but cost 50 less and weaker than the salamander, but the range 1-2 is very strong where most of its targets have only range 1... If you protect it well it will be well worth the 200.
Just look at lkasr's replays on how to use them properly

Moderator of gamechat and forum. Tourney admin.

Send me a PM here or invite me to a game if you want to ask me something, suggest a map for tourney or just wanna play a game
[Email]
dr. pepper

Messages: 127,
Joined: Aug 08, 2009,
Offline

dr. pepper

Messages: 127,
Joined: Aug 08, 2009,
Offline
  simsverd wrote:
  dr. pepper wrote:Simsverd,

I'd be interesting in hearing your opinion or developers on the comparison I laid out re: fuze vs. mantisse. The same comparison applies fuze vs. salamander.

The fuze seems really weak now.

I disagree. Its weaker than mantisse but cost 50 less and weaker than the salamander, but the range 1-2 is very strong where most of its targets have only range 1... If you protect it well it will be well worth the 200.
Just look at lkasr's replays on how to use them properly


I was comparing the fuze to the mantisse primarily. The range is the same for the fuze vs. the mantisse. So what I'm stating is that 50 credits is well well worth 1 additional attack to ground light, 1 additional attack to aerial, 10% armor piercing to aerial, 2 additional mobility and 2 defense strength. By comparison saving 50 credits is not worth the massive downgrade the fuze is by comparison.
Tobeee

Messages: 6,
Joined: Dec 13, 2016,
Offline

Tobeee

Messages: 6,
Joined: Dec 13, 2016,
Offline
  simsverd wrote:
  Duaneski wrote:Fuze and mantisse are both just BETTER swarmers... with terrain bonus and considering their cost, they're like better than swarmers ever were pre nerf.

So, I'm changing all of my teams and no longer playing as khral until they get sorted out.

how you think they are better ? Mantisse vs swarmer is equal when mantisse is on swamp.. othervise swarmer wins. Move, heal and cost is same. Mantisse can cap yes, but it would rarely be the case where you use a 250 unit to cap.

on plain mantisse does 3-4 to swarmer - wich does 6 in return
fuze on plain vs swarmer is 3 dammage vs 7 in return..

https://unicalc.github.io/web/desktop

I just dont get why you think they are BETTER swarmers...

That is just the the amphibious vs swarmer matchup. Comparing the two on different situations against other troops the amphibious almost always perform better.
[Avatar]
Duaneski

Messages: 1021,
Joined: Nov 27, 2015,
Offline

[Avatar]
Duaneski

Messages: 1021,
Joined: Nov 27, 2015,
Offline
  simsverd wrote:
  Duaneski wrote:Fuze and mantisse are both just BETTER swarmers... with terrain bonus and considering their cost, they're like better than swarmers ever were pre nerf.

So, I'm changing all of my teams and no longer playing as khral until they get sorted out.

how you think they are better ? Mantisse vs swarmer is equal when mantisse is on swamp.. othervise swarmer wins. Move, heal and cost is same. Mantisse can cap yes, but it would rarely be the case where you use a 250 unit to cap.

on plain mantisse does 3-4 to swarmer - wich does 6 in return
fuze on plain vs swarmer is 3 dammage vs 7 in return..

https://unicalc.github.io/web/desktop

I just dont get why you think they are BETTER swarmers...


Their BASE damage profiles are Very very close to the swarmer... on a forest, base, or harbor they may slightly outperform the swarmer against GL or GH. On swamp or reef they've got a noticeable edge.

On certain maps a swarmer will perform better as far as damage output goes.. for sure. And swarmers are in theory a reasonable counter to Fuze and mantisse (if you can avoid marauders and speeders to get there of course ) )...

So, their slightly favorable damage profile in addition to their ability to capture bases (i am definitely not discounting that ability .. I think it's very valuable, even if I won't get to do it too too often, the threat is worth a lot (in my crazy mind).

I think I was also just sad for khrals, that their signature swarmer felt like he was given away to the other races, and they may even be (situationally) better

Hope that makes some sense.
dr. pepper

Messages: 127,
Joined: Aug 08, 2009,
Offline

dr. pepper

Messages: 127,
Joined: Aug 08, 2009,
Offline
  Tobeee wrote:
  simsverd wrote:
  Duaneski wrote:Fuze and mantisse are both just BETTER swarmers... with terrain bonus and considering their cost, they're like better than swarmers ever were pre nerf.

So, I'm changing all of my teams and no longer playing as khral until they get sorted out.

how you think they are better ? Mantisse vs swarmer is equal when mantisse is on swamp.. othervise swarmer wins. Move, heal and cost is same. Mantisse can cap yes, but it would rarely be the case where you use a 250 unit to cap.

on plain mantisse does 3-4 to swarmer - wich does 6 in return
fuze on plain vs swarmer is 3 dammage vs 7 in return..

https://unicalc.github.io/web/desktop

I just dont get why you think they are BETTER swarmers...

That is just the the amphibious vs swarmer matchup. Comparing the two on different situations against other troops the amphibious almost always perform better.


I can see the Mantisse as roughly equal in value to a swarmer (dependent on terrain placement). The Fuze? No. It's weak and I've showed why.
[Avatar]
LkASr

Messages: 752,
Joined: Sep 24, 2015,
Offline

[Avatar]
LkASr

Messages: 752,
Joined: Sep 24, 2015,
Offline
  dr. pepper wrote:
I can see the Mantisse as roughly equal in value to a swarmer (dependent on terrain placement). The Fuze? No. It's weak and I've showed why.


Pepper my good boy, the Fuze is meme level. You won't understand how great they can be without understanding how to make them meme on enemies

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Mar 07, 2017 04:48


Never surrender when you still have the chance.
"I have achieved navel superiority" -myself 2017
All the good stuff [WoT Generals Beta Tester, Uniwar Beta Tester, Vainglory Hero Suggestions List Contributor]
Come look at my profile for more info
[Avatar]
simsverd

Messages: 921,
Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
Offline

[Avatar]
simsverd

Messages: 921,
Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
Offline
  Duaneski wrote:Fuze and mantisse are both just BETTER swarmers...

in theory.. then the mantisse and fuze would litterary swarm the battlefield ...pun intended

but thats not the case.. they dont seem overused.. so there must be a flaw to your theory "better swarmers"

Moderator of gamechat and forum. Tourney admin.

Send me a PM here or invite me to a game if you want to ask me something, suggest a map for tourney or just wanna play a game
[Email]
[Avatar]
LkASr

Messages: 752,
Joined: Sep 24, 2015,
Offline

[Avatar]
LkASr

Messages: 752,
Joined: Sep 24, 2015,
Offline
  simsverd wrote:
  Duaneski wrote:Fuze and mantisse are both just BETTER swarmers...

in theory.. then the mantisse and fuze would litterary swarm the battlefield ...pun intended

but thats not the case.. they dont seem overused.. so there must be a flaw to your theory "better swarmers"


meme level, sims, meme level

Never surrender when you still have the chance.
"I have achieved navel superiority" -myself 2017
All the good stuff [WoT Generals Beta Tester, Uniwar Beta Tester, Vainglory Hero Suggestions List Contributor]
Come look at my profile for more info
Pento

Messages: 97,
Joined: Feb 14, 2017,
Offline

Pento

Messages: 97,
Joined: Feb 14, 2017,
Offline
I don't understand you! you all are pointing that the fuze is worth the money, when you know how to play it. OK

BUT pepper is saying that the Mantisse is far stronger than the fuze for only 50 credits more.

And there is absolutely no doubt that the Mantisse has far more value for the money than the fuze.
Mantisse can capture bases as well and gets the same bonuses on terrain, so fuze is not outstanding anyhow.

[Avatar]
simsverd

Messages: 921,
Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
Offline

[Avatar]
simsverd

Messages: 921,
Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
Offline
  Pento wrote:I don't understand you! you all are pointing that the fuze is worth the money, when you know how to play it. OK
BUT pepper is saying that the Mantisse is far stronger than the fuze for only 50 credits more.
And there is absolutely no doubt that the Mantisse has far more value for the money than the fuze.
Mantisse can capture bases as well and gets the same bonuses on terrain, so fuze is not outstanding anyhow.

What is your point? Both units are situational.. its not (yet) possible from experience or "mathematichs" to say if the mantisse at 250 is a much better buy than fuze at 200 .... Time and use will tell.. and we will adjust accordingly..

You could use the same comparison between a 600 leviathan and 800 destroyer... wich is the better buy?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Mar 07, 2017 10:24


Moderator of gamechat and forum. Tourney admin.

Send me a PM here or invite me to a game if you want to ask me something, suggest a map for tourney or just wanna play a game
[Email]
Pento

Messages: 97,
Joined: Feb 14, 2017,
Offline

Pento

Messages: 97,
Joined: Feb 14, 2017,
Offline
  simsverd wrote:
  Pento wrote:I don't understand you! you all are pointing that the fuze is worth the money, when you know how to play it. OK
BUT pepper is saying that the Mantisse is far stronger than the fuze for only 50 credits more.
And there is absolutely no doubt that the Mantisse has far more value for the money than the fuze.
Mantisse can capture bases as well and gets the same bonuses on terrain, so fuze is not outstanding anyhow.

What is your point? Both units are situational.. its not (yet) possible from experience or "mathematichs" to say if the mantisse at 250 is a much better buy than fuze at 200 .... Time and use will tell.. and we will adjust accordingly..

You could use the same comparison between a 600 leviathan and 800 destroyer... wich is the better buy?


??? Read again carefully what I and pepper wrote and perhaps than you get our point.
And those units are not situational at all. Same class , same idea, same usage.
[Avatar]
Duaneski

Messages: 1021,
Joined: Nov 27, 2015,
Offline

[Avatar]
Duaneski

Messages: 1021,
Joined: Nov 27, 2015,
Offline
  Pento wrote:
  simsverd wrote:
  Pento wrote:I don't understand you! you all are pointing that the fuze is worth the money, when you know how to play it. OK
BUT pepper is saying that the Mantisse is far stronger than the fuze for only 50 credits more.
And there is absolutely no doubt that the Mantisse has far more value for the money than the fuze.
Mantisse can capture bases as well and gets the same bonuses on terrain, so fuze is not outstanding anyhow.

What is your point? Both units are situational.. its not (yet) possible from experience or "mathematichs" to say if the mantisse at 250 is a much better buy than fuze at 200 .... Time and use will tell.. and we will adjust accordingly..

You could use the same comparison between a 600 leviathan and 800 destroyer... wich is the better buy?


??? Read again carefully what I and pepper wrote and perhaps than you get our point.
And those units are not situational at all. Same class , same idea, same usage.


I don't think you read what Sims posted at all. He said they'll make adjustments as needed.

You guys pointed out all of the extra stats the mantisse gets for 50 credits more, but unless you're playing someone with JUST these units maybe it makes sense
to consider the other units the races have and how the races play against each other as well?

Is the marauder better than a speeder? (your answer should be: sometimes, yes.) ... well, sometimes, even with fewer stats, you're gonna rather have 5 Fuze than 4 mantisse, is my impression... (whether that means you have 450 credits and you can build Fuze and marauder and your opp has to choose... mantisse or speeder .. or something else ..)

Anyway..
[Avatar]
Duaneski

Messages: 1021,
Joined: Nov 27, 2015,
Offline

[Avatar]
Duaneski

Messages: 1021,
Joined: Nov 27, 2015,
Offline
  simsverd wrote:
  Duaneski wrote:Fuze and mantisse are both just BETTER swarmers...

in theory.. then the mantisse and fuze would litterary swarm the battlefield ...pun intended

but thats not the case.. they dont seem overused.. so there must be a flaw to your theory "better swarmers"


You make some darned fine points sir.... but, I also don't see swarmers swarming the battlefield either :p so... I'm not sure that's the most relevant observation.

On most maps, playing as khrals, would you rather have swarmer or mantisse? I think that's the question I would ask (since their cost is equivalent I'll just go with those two)... with a lot of mountains or dunes, definitely swarmer. Otherwise, and especially with water or red tiles, absolutely mantisse.

I dunno. Maybe I'll care a lot less when/if khrals get their speeder/marauder equivalent (I'm assuming / hoping they will )
dr. pepper

Messages: 127,
Joined: Aug 08, 2009,
Offline

dr. pepper

Messages: 127,
Joined: Aug 08, 2009,
Offline
  simsverd wrote:
  Pento wrote:I don't understand you! you all are pointing that the fuze is worth the money, when you know how to play it. OK
BUT pepper is saying that the Mantisse is far stronger than the fuze for only 50 credits more.
And there is absolutely no doubt that the Mantisse has far more value for the money than the fuze.
Mantisse can capture bases as well and gets the same bonuses on terrain, so fuze is not outstanding anyhow.

What is your point? Both units are situational.. its not (yet) possible from experience or "mathematichs" to say if the mantisse at 250 is a much better buy than fuze at 200 .... Time and use will tell.. and we will adjust accordingly..

You could use the same comparison between a 600 leviathan and 800 destroyer... wich is the better buy?


I think it's easier to see when a unit is overpowered. Obviously "time did tell" that the guardian was overpowered, which is why it was nerfed. And actually now that I think about it, the Fuze was nerfed as well (I believe the aerial damage was reduced).

I guess what I'm failing to understand is why the Fuze has 2 defensive strength in addition to the weakest attack output in the class (the implication is that its' versatility and other advantages should be balanced with a vulnerable unit, take the bopper for instance - 3 range and 0 strength).

I just don't see how 1-2 range (vs. salamander) or 50 less credits (vs. mantisse) accounts for all its' relative weaknesses.

On the flip side, I think it's harder to see when a unit is underpowered which is why I'm trying to drive this point home about the Fuze so that the developers can look into it.

I believe that time and the data will bear out what I'm saying.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at Mar 07, 2017 18:54

Forum Index » General Discussion
Powered by JForum 2.1.9 © - 2020-04-14 v124 - UniWar website