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Thoughts on the New 2-23 Balance Changes
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dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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I've gotten to use the Salamander more, and I must say it's very effective and trades well with most 250 credit units especially when it's in a swamp.

Just reinforces my opinion that the Fuze is by far the weakest of the three amphibian units.
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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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I've gotten great mileage out of Fuze in this matchup. In addition to killing my opponents marauders and marines, I also killed a wayward red marauder.

Those two Fuze have provided free damage so far and have definitely earned their value back. (The terrain is good and my opp hasn't countered w heli or tank. So that's helped



(Just to say, they're far from useless )

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Mar 10, 2017 22:56

dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  Duaneski wrote:I've gotten great mileage out of Fuze in this matchup. In addition to killing my opponents marauders and marines, I also killed a wayward red marauder.

Those two Fuze have provided free damage so far and have definitely earned their value back. (The terrain is good and my opp hasn't countered w heli or tank. So that's helped



(Just to say, they're far from useless )


I never said it's useless. I said it's underpowered when when compared to other amphibian units. You also just pointed out your opponent isn't countering it. Plus the best unit to counter it seems to be either a marine or a marauder. A heli or tank isn't even necessary.
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LkASr

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LkASr

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  dr. pepper wrote:I've gotten to use the Salamander more, and I must say it's very effective and trades well with most 250 credit units especially when it's in a swamp.

Just reinforces my opinion that the Fuze is by far the weakest of the three amphibian units.


The only thing that made you think of it is that its aerial power was nerfed badly. It was great when it had that.

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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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  dr. pepper wrote:
  Duaneski wrote:I've gotten great mileage out of Fuze in this matchup. In addition to killing my opponents marauders and marines, I also killed a wayward red marauder.

Those two Fuze have provided free damage so far and have definitely earned their value back. (The terrain is good and my opp hasn't countered w heli or tank. So that's helped

(Just to say, they're far from useless )


I never said it's useless. I said it's underpowered when when compared to other amphibian units. You also just pointed out your opponent isn't countering it. Plus the best unit to counter it seems to be either a marine or a marauder. A heli or tank isn't even necessary.


Okay. I see what you mean.

Yes. If you let them get attacked, literally any unit counters them. This was true of swarmers for a long time. The key to using a Fuze or mantisse efficiently is not letting it get attacked. It's kind of like a flexible ish boarfly without the GH bang.

You're looking to put out free spot damage without retaliation.. so having something in front of them (marauder and marine is fine) is necessary.

I mentioned helis and tanks as counters because they won't take any damage (or one at most) from my Fuze - rendering them terribly inefficient in the short term.
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LkASr

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LkASr

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  Duaneski wrote:
  dr. pepper wrote:
  Duaneski wrote:I've gotten great mileage out of Fuze in this matchup. In addition to killing my opponents marauders and marines, I also killed a wayward red marauder.

Those two Fuze have provided free damage so far and have definitely earned their value back. (The terrain is good and my opp hasn't countered w heli or tank. So that's helped

(Just to say, they're far from useless )


I never said it's useless. I said it's underpowered when when compared to other amphibian units. You also just pointed out your opponent isn't countering it. Plus the best unit to counter it seems to be either a marine or a marauder. A heli or tank isn't even necessary.


Okay. I see what you mean.

Yes. If you let them get attacked, literally any unit counters them. This was true of swarmers for a long time. The key to using a Fuze or mantisse efficiently is not letting it get attacked. It's kind of like a flexible ish boarfly without the GH bang.

You're looking to put out free spot damage without retaliation.. so having something in front of them (marauder and marine is fine) is necessary.

I mentioned helis and tanks as counters because they won't take any damage (or one at most) from my Fuze - rendering them terribly inefficient in the short term.


unless they're in the swamp

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Pento

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Pento

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And all maps are full of swamp.
Kohtar

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Kohtar

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After playing a while with new units I feel that khrals are still behind, especially against sapiens. The reason is not the khrals new units, which are now fine. The reason is that the only khral unit able to defend properly against the marauder is the pinzer (which was the best tank in the game) and the pinzer is now way harder to use because of the bopper. Being the only race without a harassment unit they badly need a good defensive unit. Neither borfly nor salamander fits the bill.
Pento

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Pento

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Good point.
But you have Garuda. A perfect, all use air unit, for a very reasonable price.
That helps a lot for blocking Sapiens tank, defense in general and ranged attack without landscape modification.
Garuda is your maurader+, and it gets hardly effected by bopper.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Mar 11, 2017 22:07

dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  LkASr wrote:
  dr. pepper wrote:I've gotten to use the Salamander more, and I must say it's very effective and trades well with most 250 credit units especially when it's in a swamp.

Just reinforces my opinion that the Fuze is by far the weakest of the three amphibian units.


The only thing that made you think of it is that its aerial power was nerfed badly. It was great when it had that.


It was a combination of two nerfs (mobility + aerial attack) combined with using it a lot (and then repeatedly dying to anything) and boosts to the salamander.

Additionally, I was frustrated that both the bopper and Fuze got nerfed to 1 aerial limiting sapiens anti-air options (I addressed this in another thread).

dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  Kohtar wrote:After playing a while with new units I feel that khrals are still behind, especially against sapiens. The reason is not the khrals new units, which are now fine. The reason is that the only khral unit able to defend properly against the marauder is the pinzer (which was the best tank in the game) and the pinzer is now way harder to use because of the bopper. Being the only race without a harassment unit they badly need a good defensive unit. Neither borfly nor salamander fits the bill.


This is way worse vs. Titans where mechas, speeders, and assimilators run over most Khraleans units. If they add Pinzer, buy a guardian.

Swarmers do better against Marauders and Marines than they do against speeders and mechas.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Mar 13, 2017 11:11

dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  Duaneski wrote:
  dr. pepper wrote:
  Duaneski wrote:I've gotten great mileage out of Fuze in this matchup. In addition to killing my opponents marauders and marines, I also killed a wayward red marauder.

Those two Fuze have provided free damage so far and have definitely earned their value back. (The terrain is good and my opp hasn't countered w heli or tank. So that's helped

(Just to say, they're far from useless )


I never said it's useless. I said it's underpowered when when compared to other amphibian units. You also just pointed out your opponent isn't countering it. Plus the best unit to counter it seems to be either a marine or a marauder. A heli or tank isn't even necessary.


Okay. I see what you mean.

Yes. If you let them get attacked, literally any unit counters them. This was true of swarmers for a long time. The key to using a Fuze or mantisse efficiently is not letting it get attacked. It's kind of like a flexible ish boarfly without the GH bang.

You're looking to put out free spot damage without retaliation.. so having something in front of them (marauder and marine is fine) is necessary.

I mentioned helis and tanks as counters because they won't take any damage (or one at most) from my Fuze - rendering them terribly inefficient in the short term.


I get it. Protect ranged units. It's one thing to protect a guardian that's going to dish out 4-6 damage to a GH. What is a Fuze going to do? 4-6 damage on a GL. Big deal. I can easily get that by buying 2 marines. It does nothing to GH, nothing to aerial, nothing to aquatic and it's weak vs. other amphibians. Why would I buy it compared to other options which are better?

I purchase Salamader and Mantisse when appropriate in swamps because their stats + the bonuses make it worth it. A Fuze on a swamp is still bad (compared to 200 credits spent elsewhere).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Mar 13, 2017 11:10

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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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Dr Pepper - reply to your post immediately above this....

Yes. I agree. But we have been doing literally that same thing for the swarmer for years. Granted a aerial defense of 4 is better than amphibious armor of 2-5... but their damage is very similar. It's essentially the same principle, in my book. And honestly, you can probably get more damage per credit out of a Fuze than a swarmer on most maps anyway

(Does the swarmer need a buff? I think yes. Does the Fuze - I think no honestly. I would be good with a mantisse nerf though)
dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  Duaneski wrote:Dr Pepper - reply to your post immediately above this....

Yes. I agree. But we have been doing literally that same thing for the swarmer for years. Granted a aerial defense of 4 is better than amphibious armor of 2-5... but their damage is very similar. It's essentially the same principle, in my book. And honestly, you can probably get more damage per credit out of a Fuze than a swarmer on most maps anyway

(Does the swarmer need a buff? I think yes. Does the Fuze - I think no honestly. I would be good with a mantisse nerf though)


A Mantisse nerf accomplishes the same thing assuming it's nerfed appropriately (bridge the gap between the fuse and mantisse).
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