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Make Helicopters cost 550 points instead of 500
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_jnc_

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_jnc_

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Overall I still think the units are well balanced and should not easily be played around with. But: the fact that on large maps Sapiens players only produce Helis (and some ground backup eventually) is enough to show that it still is too powerful. I agree that the cost increase would be the easiest and safest way to get rid of that problem. Maybe the 50 credit increase could be combined with a 50 credit drop on the Battery (which you now hardly ever encounter). That way Sapiens player would not feel that disappointed and we could see a little more variety on the battlefield.
drquicksilve

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drquicksilve

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As lion37 says, it's not the stats of the helicopter that make it powerful; although its defense is high, it is a very expensive unit at 500. The power comes from the attack and fall back. This means a group of helis can *always* gang up on a single opponent, even if only one space next to him is free.

It also means they can retreat to the engineer on the same turn as their attack, whilst most other units will have to spend a turn retreating.

All that being said, I'm not sure they are overpowered with the repair change. If they were weakened any further then sapiens would need a complete rejig as a race, because then I think khraleans would walk right over them...
lion37

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lion37

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In addition to everything I said about the Helis being too powerful, there is also the issue that they are not limited by geography. As the players are building Heli armadas, they can hover over mountains, trees, and even the ocean.

In any standoff situation, the Heli player can just turtle up and build ever more Heli's. 10 are not enough? no problem, build 20, or even 30. There is almost no limit to how many can be built. I would like to see the Tital or Bug army that can fight 20 Helis backed up by engineers. Titans have some strong units, but they are very limited by geography in terms of how many you can build and where they can move.

Seriously, I am playing less and less games as it is no longer fun to fight against these Heli armys.

magic molly

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magic molly

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Maybe if the retreat power was only enough to move one space, instead of two. Or, the khralie arty could be made to have a better AA attack.
Anonymous

Anonymous
I dunno. Helis are terrible against eclipses and can't do much to plasma tanks. Garudas are now pretty evenly matched, and engineers are just begging to by killed by buried units. Plus garduas heal quickly not that the heli regen has been dropped. I see it all being much more balanced now.
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_jnc_

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_jnc_

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Anonymous wrote: Helis are terrible against eclipses and can't do much to plasma tanks. Garudas are now pretty evenly matched

Maybe you're right; if I'm playing as Titans or Khraleans I'm actually not that afraid of helis, but still Sapiens players keep producing nothing else. Have to admit that if I'm Sapiens (in random games) I stick with the Helis too. Maybe it's just old habits that die hard.

But maybe I could come back to my initial proposal: Helis 550 and Batteries 500. Nobody gets angry and everyone has more fun and the world is a better place
Anonymous

Anonymous
Helis are terrible against eclipses and can't do much to plasma tanks. Garudas are now pretty evenly matched...


Except on big maps (especially with water) where eclipses and plasma tanks can't get anywhere near the Heli's, who simply fly off to heal or wreak havoc elsewhere.

And Garuda's get hammered by marines accompanying the heli's, or ganged up on because the heli's can retreat after attacking, always leaving a space for another to attack.

Heli's are just all round too useful. They are almost always good, so nobody builds anything else.
Anonymous

Anonymous
On big maps-- so what? Back your units up with assimilators. You say this like the helicopter isn't taking damage itself when it attacks. They don't do much to Plasma tanks at all, and are pretty even against eclipses. Helicopters actually aren't that great against sapiens. Engineers backed with tanks are a lot more effective, plus some various tricks to take down walkers.

Garudas only get hammered if they're not paying attention to what terrain the marines are on. Back them up with swarmers anyway, which can also be good at finishing off helicopters, and are great at clearing out marines. It's when they throw marauders into the mix that you're really in trouble. Garudas also heal so fast, and can travel so far, that they're much more useful that helicopters in a long battle. A wounded helicopter is pretty useless, and an engineer is pretty easy to remove. A wounded Garuda can be at 10 again quickly. As long as you can keep pumping out and healing units any khralean player who knows what they're doing can win against someone who spams helicopters. Yeah helicopters and marines are tougher but that's why it's a strategy game. Use some strategy and you can at least hold your own.

Seriously, helicopters just aren't the threat they were when they had 2 healing. Yes, they can get away- but they can't go as far as they can on the initial attack, which often makes them still reachable.

Someone who only makes
Hachiman

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Hachiman

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On big maps-- so what? Back your units up with assimilators.


How do Assimilators help the fact that the Heli's can almost always choose not to engage the units that are good against them, and destroy the ones who aren't on a large map? Your answer doesn't address the problem at all.

They don't do much to Plasma tanks at all, and are pretty even against eclipses


The whole point is that Heli's often don't have to engage these units at all - they are too slow. And the Eclipse is meant to be a counter to air units .. so being 'pretty even' (which is true) isn't nearly good enough. The truth is Titans don't really have any good counter to Heli's, and to a lesser extent, neither do Kral's.

Garudas only get hammered if they're not paying attention to what terrain the marines are on.


Completely wrong. 3 Marines (cost 300) can kill 1 Garuda (cost 350) in open terrain without losing a single unit. Try it.

Garudas also heal so fast, and can travel so far, that they're much more useful that helicopters in a long battle.


Except engineers are cheaper than Infectors to boost the heli's healing rate, and Heli's travel further than Garuda's (same movement rate + move after attack).

Engineers backed with tanks are a lot more effective, plus some various tricks to take down walkers.


IF this is true (which I don't think it is), it's only because engineers are very powerful against Titans too (see below)

It's when they throw marauders into the mix that you're really in trouble


You're already in deep trouble, that just seals the deal.

A wounded helicopter is pretty useless...


Wrong again. Because a Heli is so mobile and retreats when it attacks, it can very easily retreat to and repair with engineers or med bases.

and an engineer is pretty easy to remove


Unless (for example) you are playing Titans, where they can automatically disable or reprogram any of your units, and few of them will kill the engineer in one hit anyhow.

As long as you can keep pumping out and healing units any khralean player who knows what they're doing can win against someone who spams helicopters.


Maybe (if you're expert at it and the map allows it). But Infectors are expensive and easy to kill, especially by ultra mobile Marauders and Heli's. And Garuda's are outclassed in combat by both.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jun 27, 2009 03:05

Hachiman

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Hachiman

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Yeah helicopters and marines are tougher but that's why it's a strategy game. Use some strategy and you can at least hold your own.


Is that why in 90% of 1v1 open games my opponent is Sapiens? And on anything thats not a tiny map they spam Heli's + either Marines or Marauders. Where's the strategy in that exactly?

Seriously, helicopters just aren't the threat they were when they had 2 healing.


Yes, but they're still strong against everything, making them overused and overpowerful.

Yes, they can get away- but they can't go as far as they can on the initial attack, which often makes them still reachable.


Until they flit off over hard terrain, repair, and come back (or just pick on stuff that can't hurt them)

I think their Defence is too high, considering a lot of units can't hit them anyway. They should be powerful, mobile, but a bit fragile for cost against units that can actually hit them (like real Heli's). Failing that, they don't cost enough.

Hachiman

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Hachiman

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Oh, and by the way - as to the "Garuda's + Healing Infectors are equal to Heli's" argument.

2 Heli's vs 2 Garuda's + 1 Infector (same cost):

Heli's attack first = Win for Heli's with no loss (Garuda's don't get to heal: 2 Heli's kill a Garuda in one round anyway).

Garuda's attack first = Win For Heli's with one Heli lost.

Sometimes the latter is a stalemate with a 1 health plagued Heli vs a continually repairing Infector (neither can kill the other) - which really is a win for the Heli (since it's worth more, and could fly away to heal, but the Infector is a sitting duck).
Hachiman

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Hachiman

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Then again ... after testing it seems 6 Garuda's (2100pts) generally own 4 Heli's (2000pts) so maybe I'm wrong, at least for Kral's. Needs more testing...
lion37

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lion37

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Real life Helis are very volnerable units. They have 2 spinning rotors and if you manage to hit either one of them (not both) then the Heli goes down like a rock.
Just watch Blackhawk-down to see what I mean.
A soldier with an RPG can take down a Heli.

Maybe the defense strength for the Heli's should be reduced in the game to reflect this (and to restore balance).

The Battery should be made stronger to compensate. Maybe allow it to fire and then move 1 hex in the same round (But not to move before it fires, only after).
Hachiman

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Hachiman

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I agree that it would be good to improve or decrease the cost of the battery to compensate - you hardly ever see it now.

But maybe the answer is actually making Titans better / more mobile instead. They seem to have the main problem. Improving Eclipse vs air is one option, but you'd want to be careful not to make heli's useless vs Titans by over doing it.

Or how about if all their units (perhaps except walkers / assimilators) could teleport? That would mean on large maps they could counter attack / shift defence, but with a delay. I think emp needs to be addressed too (maybe reducing its range to 1 and/or making it move OR fire). Right now Teleport is pretty useless against Sapiens, because teleporting Titans can be easily and indefinately rendered useless by spammed engineers.
5200

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5200

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Yeah, I have to say I really can't figure out why the titans haven't figured out how to make one of their units fly.

Maybe if the Mechas got jetpacks? Give them the same mobility they have now, but let them move wherever unhindered? Just a thought.
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