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Our Balancing Salvation!
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Would you like balancing changes to be put into effect?
Yes. 63% [ 12 ]
No. 21% [ 4 ]
Yes, these ideas are awesome, and I'd love to have very balanced uniwar! 16% [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 19
youownme

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youownme

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Our balancing Salvation

So over the past few months I have been trying to come up with a solution for the balancing of this game. It is hard, we have to be careful with the changes we make, and we need to try and maintain the diversity of the races. So after pondering many ideas and talking to some good players, (talking individually with some and creating free for alls with others where we discuss, which I believe is how the leviathin air buff was put in effect) I have come up with a list of changes that will lessen the advantages the races have over each other, which I will list below. After I have listed those, I will will list each of the changes of each race, and the pros and cons of each change.

Same race matches are balanced.

Sapiens versus Khraleans:

Those pesky marines.

Sapiens versus Titans:

Walkers and plasmas. Walkers tear batteries apart, and plasmas are very hard to kill without batteries or engineers, which walkers are very good at destroying.

Khraleans versus Titans:

Underlings and Swarmers. Buried underlings are great for killing walkers, eclipses, and assimilators. They also provide great gangup opportunities. A spam of burylings when used properly is very deadly. Also, titan units are very slow moving. In terrain they are even slower. Khral swarmers can fly over these no problem, and any eclipse, which is the usual counter to swarmers, suffers greatly from terrain disadvantages. Mechas also have good aerial, but they move too slow for underlings and swarmers.





Proposed solutions:

Khraleans:

*Allow infector to infect as many marines as are in a one tile radius. This will provide more protection and get rid of more of those marines. A possible downfall is the effectiveness on close maps, such as powerplay. Keep in mind batteries, marauders and helis can one-shot infectors.

*Plague range of 2 with cooldown. This will help limit the ability of sapiens to pull back and repair. Also get them to spend some credits on engineers. A possible downfall is the ability to sit behind pinzers and plague.


Sapiens:

*Battery cost increase to 650, and a move AFTER attack of one tile. This will allow batteries to dip in and out of walker range after attacking plasma tanks. It will also get batteries off of being stuck on bases. It will allow batteries to have five tiles of attack/movement like the other two artillery. A possible downfall is the effectiveness against sapiens. I think the increased cost, and the cheapness of khraleans will help counter this. Batteries still wouldn't have a range of 2, so burylings and swarmers would be very effective.

*Sap tank defense increased by 1. This may not be necessary after battery change, but sapien tanks are destroyed pretty easily. Helis can easily hit them for 3 damage, and I think maybe even 4,which I was suprised when first played sap versus sap. Also, titans can tear the tanks to shreds with gangup. Possible cons, 1 defense is more a drastic change than anticipated, and Talone might have to change his sap vs sap strategy a little


Titans:

*Eclipse has -1 attack only in marsh, and -1 defense only in forest. This will help it compete more with swarmers. Possible cons, khraleans have to play a little harder.

*I know this should have went in the khraleans section, but I wanted it here. One of the greatest enemies to titans is underling spam. So I am suggesting this. If a khral player has more buried units than other units on the map, their bury bonus is reduced by 1, so they do less damage and can't one hit assimilators. You will have to be a little more careful with burying your units! Possible cons, I can't really think of many.




Looking forward to hearing your guys' thoughts! Kralux says he will look at this thread when it comes to some sort of a conclusion. We already got the leviathin air buff through, so there is hope. Also, since this is my thread I will be replying a lot to people's responses. Thanks guys!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Feb 28, 2016 20:20


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rwieczor84

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rwieczor84

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to help titan vs khral - uv should hit also buried underlings thats all. changing eclipse would add to much advantage to titans.
dan1

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dan1

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its always going to be hard to create perfect balance. i do agree with corz though i think rather than your idea you own mei perfer corz. i play kharls a lot and your suggestion would make it impossible to beat titans. the blanace between these to races is my favourite as i feeel eaither can win most the time. but i agree that once very good with kharleans the underlings can cause the trouble. with rcorz option it can stop this problem but also means titans have to spend to do it. which i feel is fair. this way you cant go all out on underlings as there is a risk you will get wiped. but on the other hand tiatns have to buy a few assimaltors as a back up just incase meaning less credits for walkers eclipses etc. i believe this solution will vary the units built on both sides more equally
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simsverd

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simsverd

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titan vs khral:
- i think uv vs buried will do it.. it might weaken the lings enough to not one-hit the assimilators
- i disagree on buffing eclipse defence/attack in terrain, but i think perhaps it get +1 in attack vs heavies and/or heal 2 points
- plasmatank increase movement from 6 -> 7 (tank and pinzer have 8 )

sap vs titan:
- i support battery fire and move one tile
- i think tank increase defence (1) is ok

khral vs saps:
- i support stronger plague/infection to counter heavy marineplay from saps - wich is what are winning them the "air" war vs khral

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Aug 20, 2012 08:32


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youownme

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youownme

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I think more than UV is needed. I am basing this off of my experinces against talone. He spam underlings all under my units, then killed my plasma tank by using 1 underling, and two wyrms that were previously out of range of my walker. After he killed my plasma, he proceeded to rape my walkers and assimilators. With UV, he could have just waited till his units healed, and then proceeded anyway. Unless I had ten assimilators I guess. But that is 2000 credits of a unit that can't attack. Enough for two pinzers and two wyrms. Or 20 lings. Maybe if speeders could move after landing on an underling I would be okay with that.

Remember in our first match dan? Where underlings and swarmers totally destroyed eclipses in forest. Titans really couldn't compete. Underlings would still have increased attack, and swarmers would still have way more mobility for gangup opportunities. I don't think it would be overpowered, khral would just have to be a bit more cautious. And for 2 repair, by the time eclipses are in forest they are already dead, and I am against +1 heavy because of the effectiveness versus sapiens.

As for plasmas, I think the 6 mobility is essential for saps.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Aug 20, 2012 09:51


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simsverd

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simsverd

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  youownme wrote: I think more than UV is needed.


Hmm.. possibly..

What about underlings "bleeding" 1 point each round after some rounds (5-6) ?

...or being unable to heal while buried - making them vulnerable to UV and "stomping".

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youownme

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youownme

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Bleeding and unable to heal sound better than a reduced bonus when you have more buried units than other units?


The comparison would start and the beginning of the turn of course, and not change halfway through.

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droidfreak36

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droidfreak36

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Infector attack buffs - Good, but maybe a bit overdone. I think giving the Infector a large defense buff could make a world of difference on its own, that could replace one or both of your buffs.

Battery buff- Move after attack wouldn't increase the rush range of Batteries, so they would either have to move in close the previous turn (and get pwned by Walkers) or wait for Titans to advance before they could attack. I think upping the Battery cost to 650 or 700 and giving them attack after move would be a much better buff. It would give them a rush range of 6 instead of 5 like Walkers and Wyrms, but they would still have a range disadvantage compared to Walkers and their stats could be downgraded to compensate. As an alternative to the stat nerfing they could just have a rule where they can only attack if they move one tile, that would reduce their rush range back to 5 and make it fair across all races.

Sap tank buff- Good, tanks are too weak as is.

Titan buffs/Khral nerfs- I'm not a big fan of the counting up lings and changing stats based on how many are buried, that seems overly complicated. The main detriment of any spam should be that the units are simply not effective against all enemy units.

I really like the idea of making lings unable to heal underground. On its own it could increase the effectiveness of stomp damage tenfold, and when combined with UV hurting lings it could exterminate ling attacks altogether. As a Khral player, however, I do rather object at how much a combination of those two would make it impossible to win Khral-Titan; Ling attacks are absolutely essential for Khrals to beat Titans. Perhaps one or the other, or even increasing stomp damage to 2 so lings can't heal fast enough to stay alive under continued stomping.

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regard87

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regard87

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Underlings unable to heal underground would make them a little less affective without making them useless. It would force you to be very careful about where you bury them, since you wouldnt want to risk them taking a shot before getting set up underground.
It would change the way I use them, I often bury wounded lings to heal, even in Kral/Sap battles if I was using them to block.

Also UV working underground would help, a Titan player would have a few Assimilators anyway waiting for the ninjas, this would allow the Assimilators to basically save them as an 8 or 9 health ling usually cant one shot.

I agree though it should be one or the other.


With the Battery buff I still think move after attack with be somewhat affective, so long as thier still cheaper. You would want to attack PT lines with them and move a few of them into Walker range at one time I suppose so that your Batteries outnumber the opponents Walkers and thier all in range of one another. It would be limited though, and difficult to get full affect out of. I'd also suggested giving them the highest defense rating of any artillery unit to survive the range deficite a little longer.
Giving them attack after move would be the easiest change, but then is there much separating them from a Wyrm?

Some sort of Eclipse boost might be nice. It cant be too much of an upgrade though as thier already a devestating anti-air unit.

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droidfreak36

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droidfreak36

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  regard87 wrote:
Giving them attack after move would be the easiest change, but then is there much separating them from a Wyrm?


The Batteries would be more expensive and have longer absolute range, plus they'd still be rather weak at short range. I just noticed a potential issue- They could devastate Wyrms in initial strikes with their longer range (Like Hydronauts vs other ships), but then again I've never used Wyrms against Batteries anyways. I always use Swarmers or short ranged units on them.

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regard87

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regard87

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  droidfreak36 wrote:
  regard87 wrote:
Giving them attack after move would be the easiest change, but then is there much separating them from a Wyrm?


The Batteries would be more expensive and have longer absolute range, plus they'd still be rather weak at short range. I just noticed a potential issue- They could devastate Wyrms in initial strikes with their longer range (Like Hydronauts vs other ships), but then again I've never used Wyrms against Batteries anyways. I always use Swarmers or short ranged units on them.


Good point about the Batteries vs the Wyrms. And sure you dont use Wyrms vs Batts but Wyrms are effective vs Choppers. This change would probably stop Kral players from using Wyrms at all in a Kral/Sap battle. Does that matter? IDK I dont use Wyrms often in that matchup, but sometimes I do.

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rwieczor84

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rwieczor84

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we can't eliminate underlings from fighting against titans! prevent from healing and taking uv damage would be to much!

sap vs titan - i think changing battery move after attack it could be a little to much, i would preffer increase tank defense +1

khral vs saps - infector should do much more in this matchups. Raise defense +1 or make better infect or plague would be very nice, becouse now its almost useless.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Aug 22, 2012 14:43

youownme

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youownme

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Alright, after some reconsideration here is what I am proposing: sap tank defense +1 (maybe), battery to 650 move after 1 tile, multiple infections, plague range 2, UV on buried and speeder move after landing on buried underling.


This doesn't address the disadvantage titans have when there is some water/terrain in the map, such as in Tactical Strike, but perhaps that is for another time.

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Nicko

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Nicko

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But if sapiens can't use their marines in forest heavy maps, how are they to counter heavy aerial khralean armies? I dunno, the infector mega buff is really the only thing holding me back ATM, except to give it a range of 2 + cooldown. Plague isn't worth 300 credits loss..

The sapien buff I REALLY like. Finally give their artillery something special like the other two! a +1 defense is always welcome, especially since they're so flimsy.

UV on buried is kinda necessary at this point, but the problem of speeders moving after landing on an underling specifically is that it makes it way too easy to detect underlings then. At least THAT easier.


I read these from your last posts but does that mean that we forget the rest of your suggestions?

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ppdashing

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ppdashing

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Most of the KvS matches boil down to marine/helis vs swarmer/garudas. Khrals need more anti-air support. Need more new units to change the meta game
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