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are protoss..i mean... titans underpowered?
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Ace40k

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Ace40k

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seeing how titans are so underrepresented in the top ranks of the ladder

why arent they played more?
Ace40k

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Ace40k

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well maybe it's because they have no airforce :(
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waxoid

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waxoid

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As one of the few Titan-preferring players on the top 50, and maybe the only one around to answer, my answer is yes.

Titans dominate Sapiens on many maps, but are competitive with or lose to Sapiens on a fair number, sometimes badly. They lose to Khraleans on basically all map types (there is some nuance on a very small range of map types, but it is not much). Either sap or khral are better choices if you want to have a consistently better chance of competitive matchups.

Yes, the lack of air units creates challenges on many maps. But I wouldn't say it is the root of problems, except on extreme mountain maps.

On the KvT problem, there was some argument about whether UV tactics can even things up on some types of maps – I think there are some very clever tactics in that area (kudos ot dan1) but my test game against him on this was not clearly proving a path to victory there (we didn't finish the game before dan dropped off). It did highlight that changes in UV recharge should be made very carefully as it is a powerful capability for T against K.

I am still in favor of making some changes. We have the list in a document many of us were working on. It would probably inspire me to play again, to play test.

changes on the list:

more interesting ones (I would do all of these, since changes are almost always too little vs. too much, but would understand one at a time):

* underling resurface bonus -1 (to +3) – this is a big one, but it will make siege scenarios much more interesting and comopetitive. We're not *remotely* in danger of getting to a place where underlings are not a strong weapon against Titans.
* wyrm g. heavy -1 to 9. Wyrm is a bargain relative to battery and walker currently, and this change is *very* good for KvT. The only heartache here is the impact to wyrm vs. marauders, which I think is survivable.

more minor ones that I think should be easily made:

* assimilator mobility +1 to 7 (helps sims get onto favorable terrain more often, and get a few more ants here and there after khral pounces... better battles and incrementally more interesting tactics.)
* eclipse mobility +1 to 11 (I think this is a minor no-brainer, to help incrementally with mobility across terrain given lack of aerial units.)
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Mantis Lord

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Mantis Lord

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What, are you serious? Titans are the most overpowered race in the game. I personally think your suggested nerfs/changes to Krals are ludicrous.

With a wall of plasmas and walkers behind, Titans cannot be beat.

On any map larger than a small to small/medium size, with neutral bases to be fought over, Titans grow even more powerful. On the largest maps, they are simply unbeatable. Chain teleporting is a broken feature the other races cannot compete with.

I am not trying to be mean. But you could probably use some deep guidance on Titans if you think they are underpowered, let alone even just thinking they're similar to the other races. I'd be happy to help with that.

I will agree with you though, they are underrepresented at the top 50. But that's because they require more skill to play effectively, since their units are more expensive. It means building the wrong unit punishes you more than with the other races.

PS - race matchups depend so deeply on the map though, generalizations are hard to make. The above statements, apart from map size, are made concerning games with average amounts of terrain and base spacing.

How does a helicopter catch the flu, exactly?
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waxoid

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waxoid

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In balance conversations we are not generally talking about broken maps, where Titans can teleport to bases that others cannot reach. No tournament involves such maps, for example. It's also possible to contrive maps where K can't use ants (e.g. barriers) which also changes things entirely, but again not common for competitive play.

Glad to hear you find T effective against K. Your description of how they dominate is not very compelling. In the tournaments we were playing last year, most KvT matches (involving strong players on both sides) were basically a race to see how fast K could win, across the board. I think there was one game between vincent and dan where vincent won as Titans, because dan gambled on something risky.

I wrote up one such match between vincent and I (a semifinal) that came down to the wire here:
http://www.uniwar.com/forum/posts/list/1651.page

Do you think Titans should win on that map, and that we both misplayed? Perhaps you think we both erred in not building walkers. I assure you that is not from lack of experience on our part.

Anyway, I am rusty, but if you want I can invite you to TvK on some midsized map so you can show me how dominant Titans really are.
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Mantis Lord

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Mantis Lord

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Waxoid! Thanks for the response I accepted the tester invite.

There are so many cases to cover, I don't even know if I believe a map can ever be truly balanced. That said, the tourney map you linked me in question is brutal for titans. Kral obviously thrives on swarm tactics, and with so many bases to defend and so few credits to do so, no wonder it just turned into a race like that. With almost zero choke points too. Really cool to see all those screenshots. Painful to me to think about how long it took to build all that up though at like what, 225 a turn? ick If that is the right amount of credits a turn starting, also think about how much nicer that is for kral. 2 turns - crab. Oh titans, you want a plasma? 3 turns. Poof. What a difference 25 credits makes. With such constricted credits too, yeah getting a walker up is nigh impossible. Snakes not so hard though, hence another balance issue to consider. I'll put it this way - I wouldn't make a case for titans on that map, because I'd simply never pick them on that map. I try to always pick the right tool for the job.

I in no way mean to knock anyone's experience, and I'm relatively new compared to the old-timers I know. I was just surprised by the seemingly generally accepted view that Kral tend to rock Titans. I just haven't observed that type of skewing on the battlefield.

That said, I apparently have an unconventional Titan strategy that seems to do very well. Not the plasma line / walkers behind general strategy from above. I will not describe it in forum as I'm still refining it and we have the tourney coming up. I'll post more about it afterwards, depending how I do You might see a slice of it in our tester game, not sure yet what I want to do there. But I have never seen another titan player use my approach.

I'll also add a caveat that I almost entirely prefer team games. My 1v1 repertoire is not as flushed out. I wouldn't be surprised if I get schooled in the tournament by solo arena veterans. But so far I've found most of my plans in team games translate well to 1v1s.


How does a helicopter catch the flu, exactly?
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waxoid

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waxoid

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Agree, it's not about perfect balance or perfect maps. The game is great *because* the races are so different to play. I just like to keep pushing for tweaks that make basic 1 on 1 matchups increasingly competitive. Once upon a time ants did +6 (!) damage when resurfacing, and that was considered too unbalanced then, came down to +4 but I now think +3 would've been better per above. Similarly helicopters once had +2 healing and marines had +1 anti-air (4) – nasty sapien domination of khral. Changing those (and giving infectors ranged infect) definitely has made SvK more interesting.


Probably the main caveat I should add to my comments is that I am really talking about classic style maps where you get more like 250-450 in credits per turn (usually 300-350), not say 1000+ like many custom maps provide these days. Titans are definitely very sensitive to build speed as you note. Any map where Titans can churn out a walker every turn (plus other stuff) makes for a different dynamic for sure - no time for khral to lay ants. I tend to think of such maps as gimmicky and unserious so don't really count them, but that may just be judgemental. Titans are stronger/broken on such maps. They can definitely be strong in team and FFA play (stronger than sap as a rule?) The kinds of adjustments I talk about above are really pretty subtle, probably 95% of players would have no idea anything had been changed, and Titan romps will happen on super-credit maps regardless of such tweaks.

So from my POV, the challenges you talk about in getting Titan units out are very core to playing them competitively. I agree they're the most difficult to play correctly. Sounds like we don't disagree as much as it sounded.

We don't have to play this particular map out if you feel like you understand why Titans lose. However, just being able to get a walker up (which some maps make easy) is not any guarantee of a win against khral, it is still in their favor usually, 1 on 1. Very hard to advance against them when they have the entire ground buried with ants and a big wave of wyrms and swarmers ready to counter-strike. We could play a larger map to see that sort of game, the only problem is those siege games can take a very long time depending on play speed which it's not certain I would complete...

In terms of screenshots, I think this was a more interesting/entertaining matchup:
http://www.uniwar.com/forum/posts/list/1650.page
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Cpt Hawaiian

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Cpt Hawaiian

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I'll add my thoughts here, too. I'm a top titan player (I'll just brag haha) and I for sure think they need a boost as well. The real critical thing about titans is that they are a turtling race. That's the only way to win in an evenly skilled, high level match. (aside from very few instances where you can quick rush and cover bases, but generally speaking that's not typical at all)

Since they depend on turtling and out-ranging with siege, their strategy becomes calculated zone control and pacing to begin to turn that point where long range assaults are too damaging to defeat. Speeders are critical early for various things like setting up gang ups and preventing penetration as well. The secret to beating a good titan player is to simply rush, pressure, and penetrate the front lines as much as possible. All that said, I think the most glaring unbalance is khral vs. titan. Currently, khral mobility plus buried underlings really makes it a lopsided battle.

Waxoid's discussion of UV tactics is an area I've explored and been quite pleased with, but it is difficult and requires a map that makes having enough assimilators available and protectable.

Anyway, here's where I think the solutions may be:

- I totally agree about buffing the assimilator movement to 7 or even 8. This is my most hoped for change. This would do 2 major things for Titans. It will make reacting to underling popups much more doable, and help lessen that threat. It will also allow the assimilator to get to areas quickly to emergency heal. For titans, keeping front lines up is imperative. A mobile assimilator or two could jump to a plasma tank about to fall and save it for another turn, which could be the difference in a match.

- Another idea, in line with making UV more useable, is to allow the assimilator to move and UV in one turn. THAT would be interesting. I would love to test that. Please devs?

- Buff the eclipse mobility to 12. Or buff it's heal rate to +2. Or Buff its infantry attack to 11 (12 would allow it to snipe engineers off of bases, so that may be too much). But PLEASE buff ANYTHING about it lol. The problem with it is that it's very expensive and gets damaged by any unit easily. Once it's damaged, it heals slowly and is practically useless.


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Cpt Hawaiian

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Cpt Hawaiian

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The last thing is nerfing khrals in some way. Buried underlings is the only element in the game where strategy can be left to guessing. Moving forward into uncharted areas could place you next to a buried underling. Even in your own space behind your front defensive lines. So it gives khrals a huge advantage in that way. Of course, they need the capability to be able to get behind enemy lines and pressure. Also, I wouldn't nerf them and affect the current sapien vs. khral balance.

So I think the thing that would make me happy is allowing assimilators to assimilate an ant, and then let you move the ant on the same turn. Again, this makes countering the technique much more effective. You could do 2 things with that capability: 1, rebury the ant or retreat it to save it and use it against the khral opponent without letting them destroy it first. Remember, burying your own assimilated ants turns the buried underling game around on the khral player and also blocks his underlings. 2, Immediately counterattack the khral player's units for immediate gangup or damage.

Those are my thoughts!

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