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Race balance
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waxoid

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waxoid

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Once again, thanks and it's super exciting to see the game getting many active improvements and community boosting efforts like the tournament system. Everybody should be evangelizing to the gamers they know. Thanks to xavi and everyone involved.

Thought I'd bring this discussion back to the top of forum – are further balance changes currently on the bucket list for improvements? I continue to think that past balance improvements (heli healing to +1, ant resurface from +6 to +4 etc. etc.) generally all served to improve race balance and game playability. We know pure balance is impossible, and we are adjusting to this with mirrored tournament formats etc., but it also seems clear that more incremental balance improvements are possible and that they would continue to improve game enjoyment. Hopefully this is being considered along with the new unit discussions, and maybe that is the primary vehicle for the next round of improvements.

Uniwar is of course pure brilliant game design, with amazing replayability, but I would say race imbalance remains the main thing that drags on my enthusiasm to play more competitive games. It's just a bit of a turn-the-crank thing with another sap-titan game where there is literally no counterplay to plasma-walker strategy, hard to want to slog through it just to see if you can shave a round or two off the time it takes to inevitable defeat.

There were some older topics where we were discussing changes (in the wake of the last adjustment to give infector range 2 on plague to help KvS. It turns out that helped K mostly on bigger build-up/stand-off setups, where it is a very significant tactic.) Here are the lists we had compiled as possible changes for SvT and TvK, sort of loosely ranked by level of support I think top players were expressing:

SvT
Battery move after to 6
Battery +1 vs. ground heavy (to 11)
Sap units (or all sap units but marine/engineer) immune to UV
Battery normal mobility to 7
Reduce EMP recharge from 15 to 8 (or even lower?)
Tank mobility +1 (to 9)

TvK
Eclipse mobility +1 (to 11)
Underling resurface bonus -1 (to +3)
Eclipse repair rate to 2
Assimilator mobility +1 to 7
Wyrm g. heavy to 9
Reduce UV recharge from 11 to 7 (only with sap immunity)
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simsverd

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simsverd

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  waxoid wrote:

SvT
Battery move after to 6
Battery +1 vs. ground heavy (to 11)
Sap units (or all sap units but marine/engineer) immune to UV
Battery normal mobility to 7
Reduce EMP recharge from 15 to 8 (or even lower?)
Tank mobility +1 (to 9)

TvK
Eclipse mobility +1 (to 11)
Underling resurface bonus -1 (to +3)
Eclipse repair rate to 2
Assimilator mobility +1 to 7
Wyrm g. heavy to 9
Reduce UV recharge from 11 to 7 (only with sap immunity)

Agree that there is need for some improvements to balance.
My favourite "solutions" to some known problems:
Pinzer +1 or +2 air to better balance the powerful heli/marine/mara play
Battery ground heavy +1 (i would even consider +2) to better let sap have a chance vs the titan plasma/walker wall
Underling resurface -1 to give more balance to the khral vs titan matchup

...but all changes to balance must be seen in relation to how the new units will be. I think there will be room for balancechanges to both the new and the vurrent units when we do the new-unit-testing

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Aug 06, 2015 05:32


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anonym551653

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anonym551653

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Buried underlings aren't a problem. If a Titan player is smart they have assimilators. Batteries aren't as weak as you think so stop complaining.
Sapiens should have additional tank movement instead (not attack or defense otherwise it needs to cost more) their tanks are suckier than meta knight in ssb4 (not talking about ssbb)

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waxoid

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waxoid

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What is or isn't a balance problem at lower levels of play is not necessarily the same thing as what is a problem at the highest levels of play.

I assure you in competitive play khral is seen to beat up on titan and buried ants are a key part of this for mid to large maps where titans can fort up. Being able to lay enemies completely under your opponent where they are immune to attack is a pretty good ability on its own (great options to utilize additional bonus via gang-up etc.); the +4 resurface bonus makes it more crushing in a large surge where dozens of ants pop.

Also I assure you in competitive play where artillery is involved saps have a bit of a problem with titans.

(I don't claim I play at the highest level - many can attest to that - so it is good to get input from many top players and I'd be interested what talone and the runiwar community currently think about these areas.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Aug 07, 2015 23:58

anonym551653

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anonym551653

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Truth to that batteries one, but walkers lose to wyrms, and wyrms to batteries (at least in my experience). I still believe that batteries are fine as now anyways because sapiens vs titans is about overwhelming the enemy instead of out turtling them. Plus walkers suck on small maps. The worst sapiens unit is tank still.

To the topic of underlingsBut when those in 2000+ fight me, it's not the underlings that get me, they do work but it's other units that get me, then the buried underlings get me but I'm dead anyways. Perhaps a change in purpose, like less movement restrictions and minor buffs instead of turning them to tough hard to use units. I would prefer that. Another solution is buff cyber underling as its the worst upgrade.

But high level players must get on this discussion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Aug 09, 2015 04:00

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simsverd

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simsverd

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  anonym551653 wrote:Truth to that batteries one, but walkers lose to wyrms, and wyrms to batteries (at least in my experience). I still believe that batteries are fine as now anyways because sapiens vs titans is about overwhelming the enemy instead of out turtling them. Plus walkers suck on small maps. The worst sapiens unit is tank still.

To the topic of underlingsBut when those in 2000+ fight me, it's not the underlings that get me, they do work but it's other units that get me, then the buried underlings get me but I'm dead anyways. Perhaps a change in purpose, like less movement restrictions and minor buffs instead of turning them to tough hard to use units. I would prefer that. Another solution is buff cyber underling as its the worst upgrade.

But high level players must get on this discussion.

Discussing balance is mostly for high level players - no offence mr Anon, but they are on the top for a reason - they understand the game more deeply than players with less skill/experience.

There will probably be some balancechanges when we introduce new units - it will be a good time to look at the current minor imbalances - wax, i will include you to the latest emails about it

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