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xavi

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xavi

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After seeing the amazing fight of Earth Vs Talone on youtube.

Players are suggesting some changes to better balance the game. I invite any players to bring some constructive and positive suggestions in this topic.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Feb 21, 2017 16:47


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legia

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legia

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Tanks - are useless - i buy them only vs Titan.
Artillery - should have better Move after attack mobility.

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waxoid

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waxoid

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I offered some thoughts on this here, inspired by previous group discussions:

http://forum.uniwar.com/posts/list/2061.page

summary here... roughly listed in order of apparent popularity among the top players discussing at that time.

SvT
Battery move after to 6
Battery +1 vs. ground heavy (to 11)
Sap units (or all sap units but marine/engineer) immune to UV
Battery normal mobility to 7
Reduce EMP recharge from 15 to 8 (or even lower?)
Tank mobility +1 (to 9)

TvK
Eclipse mobility +1 (to 11)
Underling resurface bonus -1 (to +3)
Eclipse repair rate to 2
Assimilator mobility +1 to 7
Wyrm g. heavy to 9
Reduce UV recharge from 11 to 7 (only with sap immunity)
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waxoid

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waxoid

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Thinking about increasing variety in sap vs. sap, I think from the suggestions above tank mobility 9 would make them useful in more situations than currently. Besides being beaten by heli they are just too easy to starve in sap vs. sap even though you would think they should be the answer to the plague of jeeps. Increased battery mobility (both without firing and after firing) might help those find more niche uses as well but also not a big opportunity there. Soli said he had thoughts on adjustments that might help this one.
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waxoid

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waxoid

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just on the subject, happened to be musing on eclipse vs. swarmer recently

                  Eclipse           Swarmer
mobility        10 ground        9 aerial
vs g. light       10                    7
vs g. heavy     4                     5
vs aerial         12                    3
defense          9                      5
cost              400                   250

So what do you get for your +150 expensive eclipse? It's tougher, but the swarmer is incredibly more mobile. I claim that these factors mostly even out. The eclipse has to take less advantageous positions (on swamp/forest, next to mountain) in order to fire at something and the added defense just compensates some for this. So it still compares poorly on the basics because it has a harder time getting to targets than the swarmer.

For 150 then you're getting a huge ability to damage aerial (though those units are some of the most mobile and hence hardest to catch), a slight improvement in damage to g. light (helps sweep mountains and forest, i.e. 2 shots to clear vs. 3), and *less* ability to hit g. heavy. The swarmer skill against ground heavy is exaggerated by the fact that as an aerial unit it can more easily grab +3 ranged gangup and do even more damage. The swarmer is flat out *good* against g. heavy.

I would say the eclipse compares *poorly* to the swarmer head to head in a bunch of ways, with the killer anti-air power maybe pushing it up to being more valuable than the swarmer, but really hard to see it being +150 in cost. Hence the discussion of eclipse improvements. Heal +2 is a popular option that would further help it compensate for the bad positions it has to take. It just seems painful not to have it be mobility 11, in many real situations it only moves 2 spaces like a tank, yet it is often Titan's critical hope in tighter terrain to reach enemy targets. I would throw increasing g. light damage to 12 into the mix so the ant sweeping gets nastier too [edit: forgot that 12 would kill engineers on base which is no fun, so probably only 11 there]. Reducing the cost (e.g. to 350) also an option but I think it's fine to keep with the spirit of Titans having more advanced but expensive units.


This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at Sep 11, 2015 15:42

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legia

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legia

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Correction - swarmer have 9 mobility

EMP and UV reduced recharge would be very nice.
Tank mobility to 9 also - 3 hex on plains, 2 hex thru forest.
Assimilator mobility +1 - good idea.
Battry mobility +1 - ok.
Eclipse mobility +1 (to 11) - it ok, but still eclipse is a little bit to weak.

Sap units (or all sap units but marine/engineer) immune to UV - i don't like that. Assimilator would be useless.

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waxoid

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waxoid

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thanks on mobility catch, edited.

not sure on your comment about 2 hex through forest – if tank mobility 9, that would still only be hex in forest, as move cost there is 6, but maybe you mean it could move over plains into forest, which would be true.

agree just moving eclipse mobility to 11 doesn't do much to repair weakness of eclipse, just saying this seems like a really easy immediate change to make that helps a bit.

on sap units and UV – don't see how you think this makes assimilator useless, it is still a healer. The engineer special ability (EMP) only works on Titans, and the infector special ability (plague) only works on Sapiens, so it's certainly reasonable to talk about having UV only affect Khraleans (i.e. the species that Titans have consistent trouble with). I think one dev objection to this is that it doesn't make thematic sense (if UV harms biological units, then it should affect saps) and that's why I mention the only engineers and marines, you can just say the saps sealed their vehicles to protect against it. In terms of balance, in maps where there are massed units facing off, Titans definitely do not need the added edge of assimilators taking damage off of every unit, it just adds insult to injury at that point.

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simsverd

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simsverd

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My top fixes to current minor imbalances :

Khral:
Pinzer +2 air.
Will better balance the khral/sap because heli now will take 1 dammage when hitting a pinzer.
This will also make the pinzer a usable unit in khral vs khral battles (wich is mostly all swarmers now)

Titan:
Make the eclipse a flying unit and remove teleport ability. Reduce move to 9. Possibly reduce air to 11 (-1).
This will give titan better flexiblity vs all matchups and the eclipse will not be such an underused unit.

Sap:
Battery +1 (or +2) vs ground heavy.
This will make the battery better vs the titan plasma wall that iften make it impossible to fight a fortified titan as sap.

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Kroeger

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Kroeger

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Thanks for opening this discussion Xavi. I think there are two different balance issues: 1. Unit strength/price vs. 2. Race vs. Race strength. I think these two issues should be addressed differently. If we try to address the latter category before the former, then we could further the problem and have to undo those changes later (i.e. The suggestion to lower the underling's unburied bonus would lower the strength/price of arguably the weakest primary unit).

In the First Category:

1. I think everyone agrees that the Sap Tank needs the biggest upgrade. Though increasing 1 defense would do the trick, I personally like the 12,13,14 between the races tank units. I would rather see it's mobility increased to ten. I could also see giving it 3 heal, but you definitely couldn't do both without raising the price.
2. The Eclipse is slightly too weak/price; however it is extremely powerful against the saps. We should therefore be very careful how we buff it and try to target it's increase against the Khral.
3. The swarmer is one of the strongest/price (it is the strongest in my opinion). It needs some lowered stats. There are again many ways to do this, but I will propose some in the second section.
4. The marauder is slightly over powered. I know many people will hate this suggestion, but lowering the marauders mobility to 11 would make it much more fair.
(quick note: if you disagree with me about marauders and swarmers, watch a high level saps vs sap or khral vs. Khral match up)
5. The battery is a difficult one to tell. It is very underplayed, but it's stats and abilities are amazing. I don't think we should make any adjustments to it until after the new units are introduced.
6. The wyrm is slightly overpowered. I think Geoff's suggestion is brilliant.


In the Second Category:

1. Titans on mid sized maps (these are not in order of importance): Titans struggle to expand or defend a spread out base layout.

Solution without new units: Nerf Marauders mobility to 11 and decrease swarmers defense or attack against heavy ground so speeders can beat swarmers if underlings aren't used in tandem.

Solution with new units: Juggernaut https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oGw1yewauWPgQEn2NXgfX-yXVM_2LbjY-5hZ9yApNeE/edit?usp=sharing

2. Titans on Large maps: Teleportation makes them unstoppable.

Possible solution: All titan units on cooldown receive one less sight.

To be continued... (please don't post. It will take me less than 30 minutes)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Sep 14, 2015 01:29

Kroeger

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Kroeger

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3. Saps vs. Titans: Saps cannot break the titan wall.

Solution without new units: Increasing the tanks mobility would help, but honestly, I think the Saps unit selection inherently lacks in this area. I think we would have to either buff the artillery too much or change the nature of their units too much.

Solution with new units: The rocket launcher soldier https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oGw1yewauWPgQEn2NXgfX-yXVM_2LbjY-5hZ9yApNeE/edit?usp=sharing

4. Khraleans vs. Titans: They simply counter the titans too well.

Solution without new units: I love Waxoid's idea to lower wyrm's attack against heavy ground by one or two. I think that is more than fair considering their strength/price. I also think swarmer's attack against heavy ground should be reduced to 4 or even 3 (3 would still be fair in K. v S. if marauders mobility was decreased to 11).

Solution with new units: Other than the Juggernaut mentioned early to help against swarmers, I have not seen a great solution.

5. Khraleans vs Khraleans: one unit battles. Swarmers beat everything. I tell my low level friends to build all swarmers in their next K v K game and they always win even if the player is better than them and even if they don't use the extra gang up spots that make swarmers even more powerful. They dominate.

Solution without new units: By lowering their heavy ground mentioned earlier, you may open up the opportunity for pinzers and wyrms to make a presence.

Solution with new units: I designed a unit called the behemoth specifically with this problem in mind (same link as earlier)

Hope that helps Xavi! Thank again!

(I would love everyones comments on the new units google doc. I hope to keep revising it)

CHN zero

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CHN zero

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I am chn zero. First reply on this forum.... and I want to put forward some suggestions. fIrst , uniwar need attack, not defend. We need graet battle attack to the enermy. Not many many units like plasmatank and walker. and when khraleans vs khraleans not swarmerrrrrrrr any more.So in my opinion, the units need change thier ability. 1. Helicoper ground heavy attack +1. 2. Speeder air attack +1. 3, tank mobility +1 air attack +1 4, pinzer air attack +2 5. Garuda air attack +1? 6. Battery ground heavy attack +1 and cost become 600 , 7. Macha air attack+1, 8, assimilator mobility +2. 9, eclipse mobility +1 Second. New units are also needed.
unikz

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unikz

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Hi, Let me just explain why Zero made those suggestion.

His idea of change is base on changing the 2 current issues
1. K vs K only swarmers invovled fighting
2. S vs T S can never win in bigger map

So Zero suggested to increase the Khra Air units power and Pinzer's anti air power therefore in K v K, Pinzer and Garuda can be used more often.
Also increasing the power of Helicopters vs Heavy units means that Helicopters can break Plasma Shield easier than before(now you need 4-5 helicopters to break 1 plasma)
Finally, I will add 1 more suggestion base on Zero's comment, that is to increase Eclipse anti air ability so since the Sap and Khra air force air increase, Titan's anti air units also get increased,too.
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waxoid

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waxoid

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(Nice to hear from you two elite players Zero and Soli, thanks.) I've been thinking about the heli +1 g. heavy idea. It's interesting, my concern would be that it is already a bit of a super-unit, dominant in SvK and this would make it more prevalent in SvT as well. Maybe just adding +1 isn't such a big change. Currently the only real place the tank and the battery are useful is in SvT so I would not want to neglect them as part of the solution (I like that good SvT maps often provide incentive to use potentially every unit in each army). If we are trying to get the tank rehabilitated with mobility, giving helis +1 against g. heavy puts the tank back on the bench in SvS, and also has the side effect of increasing strength against marauders in SvS where helis are already heavily used. Other side effects include making heli better against pinzer so you'd have to take it along with a pinzer anti-air buff to balance that (I support the pinzer anti-air buff, but the main purpose of the pinzer is to control space so it coming down easier might not fully be compensated for by doing an extra tick of damage to the first couple of helis.)

Maybe this is a part of the overall set of changes that change SvT that can be managed, but in general I hope to see changes that encourage unit and strategy diversity as well as adding offensive options to keep the game moving.

Kyle's jeep mobility 11 is interesting, but I think jeep combinations are part of what make SvT the most fun matchup (on the right maps), and so yeah I kind of "hate" it . I don't think the change would be a big help for KvS. It seems like it would primarily help the jeep fest nature of SvS, which is a worthy goal and not many other suggestions seem to address; tank mobility not likely to rehabilitate the tank in SvS except in very specific situations.

As Kyle and Zero point out and I think everyone gets, new units can change the overall race balance and so changes have to be considered in that context. But good to discuss what we would do if we didn't have new units to get clear on the opportunities and current dynamics...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Sep 14, 2015 19:15

kyle kroeger

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kyle kroeger

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I completely agree with Geoff about Helicopters. Give the tank more mobility and make the battery a super unit by giving it 6 mobility after fire and more damage if you want to help saps against Titans, but don't buff an already over used unit.

@Geoff- To clarify about nerfing marauders, I think the saps are the weakest race held up only by two over powered units. I would only want to see marauders nerfed if given significant buffs elsewhere to make up for it. I would like to see more Sap units used.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Sep 14, 2015 21:39

wolf pack

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wolf pack

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Marauder (a ground heavy) should have some impact against a plasma tank. I found that a marauder with 8hp couldn't finish off a plasma that was down to 1 hp. Not even with multi attack bonus. And what happened to the benefit of hitting from opposite sides? Seems that went away when the damage preview was added.
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