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Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016
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Kroeger

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Kroeger

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Hello Uniwarriors,

We are beginning discussions on the next balance update. Thank you for your patience as we waited to see how strategies would change in light of the Last update.


Here are a few things to know before commenting on this thread:

1. We understand Khraleans vs Sapiens got worse after the previous update. This update will be a great opportunity to fix this.

2. This and all future balance changes will be much smaller (1-4 changes max).

3. Now that replays are public, please reference high level replays to reinforce your arguments. This can easily add a lot of credibility to your argument while giving other players a reference to see what you are saying.

Here is an example of how this might play out:

If a player says the Khraleans are weak against against the Sapiens, anyone can argue with this. However, if that player then backs his claim up by pointing to Earth and Legia's mirrored matchup in the December tournament (both of them won as Sapiens within 20 rounds) then anyone wanting to argue with that player must reference another game and explain why that map or those players caused an unreliable outcome.

Furthermore, when discussing changes, referencing games is helpful as well. Those wanting the Pinzer to have 3 air attack might point out that the turning point in both games was when the Sapien player got enough helicopters to kill a pinzer and receive little damage in return. Those opposed to the pinzer having 3 air could then agree with that players assessment while still disagreeing with the changes and explain their reasons.

Few extra notes:

A) Games where 1 race wins in both games suggest imbalance (especially if they are each won in less than 20-25 rounds).
B) Please watch the games (instead of glancing at the stats) as sometimes high level players will surrender a mirrored game even if the game is not yet concluded (ie. Gout vs Earth in December).





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Apercent

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Apercent

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Thesis: Everything was good except for the swarmers and wyrm. Do you agree?
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earth

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earth

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  Apercent wrote:Thesis: Everything was good except for the swarmers and wyrm. Do you agree?


Totally agree only change I would recommend is putting Wyrm and Wasp back to their previous attributes, and see how that goes ... less is more that's all I'm saying on this Good luck.
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Apercent

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Apercent

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I was also about to ask if anyone thought that sapiens marines should get a power-up
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Apercent

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Apercent

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  earth wrote:
  Apercent wrote:Thesis: Everything was good except for the swarmers and wyrm. Do you agree?


Totally agree only change I would recommend is putting Wyrm and Wasp back to their previous attributes, and see how that goes ... less is more that's all I'm saying on this Good luck.


But weren't the swarmers stats higher back than? :p

I support a higher defense and 8 g.l, and if that fails, than the old swarmers. The new swarmers are ridiculous.
In all fairness, I never saw the pros use the swarmers vs g.h in k v k, because no one made g.h in khraleans battles and the only times they were really used (vs g.h) was vs marauders and speeder. And you know what? They're still good vs speeders and marauders. So, in total, I say that the reduction in g.h was a good call

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Feb 09, 2016 18:24

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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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I haven't watched games to have specific examples of this yet, but the biggest reason I would like to see Pinzer Air attack up to at least 3 is to help in KvK.

Right now the most viable strategy in my games has been Garuda swarmer spam still. I've built pinzers as meat shields, but being able to get some real damage vs garudas on offense or defense I think would be a good boon as far as variety in the KvK matchup ... I'll try to find some games to back that up ..
Kroeger

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Kroeger

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  Apercent wrote:Thesis: Everything was good except for the swarmers and wyrm. Do you agree?


I think it is slightly more complicated than that. While the swarmer and wyrm debuffs did make the marauder even more powerful and the swarmer weaker, I am not convinced changing them back is the best option for fixing the KvS problem. Those debuffs were crucial for balancing KvT.

Before I move on, let me address a foreseen counter argument. Some think that KvT now favors Titans which may be partially true, but I would argue that it is relatively fairly balanced. Here are my arguments:

In addition to my personal experience (I still win as Khral against Titans 80+% of the time), look at the game history of the top four players of the December Tournament. There are a total of five TvK matchups. 100% of the time, the best player was able to win both matchups (even against good players like Sims and Willingham). This would suggest that the races are fairly balanced. That being said, the Titans consistently won with less rounds which shows that the Titans do have a slight advantage.

Another important note: the wyrm and swarmer (less so) are still used very effectively in these match ups.

Because of this, I would argue that changing the wyrm and swarmer back completety would be too drastic. Perhaps other lighter buffs could be made to the swarmer and wyrm that are more directed at the Sapien race. Swarmer +1 G.H. (only) and/or +1 G.L. has been suggested as an alternative as well as wyrm +1 air. Other alternatives have been suggested as well.
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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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Wyrm +1 air would positively help KvS, and ofc not bother KvT... So maybe that's just a good idea in general?

Looking at Fobos v Sims
And Fobos v Orko

There were wyrms aplenty in the sims game. None in the Orko game tho that was map dependent I believe.

Sims built a couple of pinzers in a losing effort. They don't do a big enough hurt to even swarmers to be viable for their cost it seemed. They average 3 damage I believe. So 3 hits from a Pinzer to off them. They usually trade evenly with 350 cost Garuda I think. Esp since a swarmer w some gang up could do a damage from range. There's just no value there, except maybe as a meat shield. But when you can swarm around and through them, or more importantly hide a Wyrm behind swarmers that a Pinzer can't eat through anyway...

So, I think this benefits KvK and ofc KvS, and I would wonder if you could consider buffing it all the way to 4..? That would give a -5 average to swarmers as is, maybe -3 to Garuda or helicopter? Maybe that's too much...? I think 3 makes a world of sense, at least, though.

I prefer swarmers doing less damage to GH, and having more GL... But I'm just gonna say my bit about pinzers for now

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Feb 09, 2016 19:51

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legia

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legia

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1) we can't bring swarmer back because he was to powerfull. Reducing his defence was good but reducing GH was too much! He should get GL instead or bring back GH (I would preffer GL because it would less affect KvsT).
As an example my video showing what swarmers before balance could do to titans and plasmas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX9wKWL6pEo

2) Pinzer - most players in tournemnt games Sap vs Khr build pinzer to play on time waste as they now that Sap will win so it is important to survive longer. Pinzers would be a little bit more usefull if they could deal more damage to helicopter, garuda and swarmer. So air +1 would be great solution.

3) wyrm GH is OK. Don't change it. But air +1 might be goodcto help against sap and i KvsK.

4) Marauder is still the most powerfull unit in UniWar. For better balance Sap vs Khr I suggest reduce his air-1 or GL -1 so one marauder wouldn't be able to kill capturing unit in one round.

5) speeder spam - look on tit vs tit tournament final - 80% is speeder only fight. Also in any other game with Khr and Sap speeders are most important and most powerfull unit in titan arsenal. I suggest at least reduce his air -1 so it would help with sapiens (helicopters would be a little bit better) and against khrals. Also eclipse should be little bit better because now no one is using it against khral or Sapiens.

6) I didn't see battery that used in Sap vs Tit (at least where battery is good help for sapien). Do you? I couldn't find any game from last tournaments games where battery was well used and helped sapien to win. You know why? Because it is to expensive. It could get worst statistics but it must be cheaper.

I am somekind of veteran here. Check my videos about UniWar on YouTube: LINK.
Playlist in English: LINK.


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Apercent

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Apercent

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"1) we can't bring swarmer back because he was to powerfull. Reducing his defence was good but reducing GH was too much! He should get GL instead or bring back GH (I would preffer GL because it would less affect KvsT).
As an example my video showing what swarmers before balance could do to titans and plasmas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX9wKWL6pEo

I agree with that. I personally think a raise in defense would be the best solution, along with 8 vs g.l

2) Pinzer - most players in tournemnt games Sap vs Khr build pinzer to play on time waste as they now that Sap will win so it is important to survive longer. Pinzers would be a little bit more usefull if they could deal more damage to helicopter, garuda and swarmer. So air +1 would be great solution.

I think pinzers are fine as it is. You don't want to make them OP vs garuda and swarmer like plasmas are

3) wyrm GH is OK. Don't change it. But air +1 might be goodcto help against sap and i KvsK.

I think the wyrm should get its g.h back, especially in light of the swarmers g.h reduction. I think that what you say could work if it was used in conjunction to a increase in swarmers g.h

4) Marauder is still the most powerfull unit in UniWar. For better balance Sap vs Khr I suggest reduce his air-1 or GL -1 so one marauder wouldn't be able to kill capturing unit in one round.
Well, I think it's fine as it is. 3 air would kill it, it would no longer be useful vs swarmers. Sure, it can kill capturing units in one round, but it's relatively weak compared to the speeder, which is stronger in every aspect, and it doesn't have the range of a swarmer. It needs something. Not to mention, saps are at a disadvantage with infantry, because their infantry has no powers and isn't as strong as others. I think it's only far to give them a super weapon.
GOUT

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GOUT

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The wyrm already has good air attack. I don't think +1 air would make it any more effective because the problem with wyrms is that they are hard to keep protected vs sapiens, not that they don't deal enough damage to helis. In the earth v legia december match, i don't think the one wyrm used was even able to get a hit on a heli the whole match.

I think the buff needs to be with the pinzer and another unit. Pinzer +1 air would make it a more viable blocker because helicopters ganging up on the pinzer would take more damage and be susceptible to counter attacks.

The pinzer will not be hunting down helis, but could be used as part of gangup attacks as well.

I am in favor of buffing the swarmer in some way too, but undecided which way to approach it.

Another idea i would like to throw out there is increasing infector defense so that it cannot be one-shot by a marauder or helicopter. Helis can even one shot an infector on a base. I would love to see more infectors used.

And one last pitch for the Pinzer buff... IMO Saps biggest advantage is that both heli and marauder can attack and retreat thus giving saps a string of +2 gangup hits. If helicopters took 1-2 damage in a string of hits then even if a pinzer was taken down at least it comes at a greater cost to the sap player and all the other khralean units behind the pinzer would become more effective. Sooo a buff to the Pinzer is really a buff for all khraleans
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Apercent

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Apercent

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5) speeder spam - look on tit vs tit tournament final - 80% is speeder only fight. Also in any other game with Khr and Sap speeders are most important and most powerfull unit in titan arsenal. I suggest at least reduce his air -1 so it would help with sapiens (helicopters would be a little bit better) and against khrals. Also eclipse should be little bit better because now no one is using it against khral or Sapiens.

reduced air wouldn't at all help in t v t. And it's funny you say 4 air would make people not use it so much, because people use marauders all the time in s v k and s vs , and they've only got 4. Especially the pros.

6) I didn't see battery that used in Sap vs Tit (at least where battery is good help for sapien). Do you? I couldn't find any game from last tournaments games where battery was well used and helped sapien to win. You know why? Because it is to expensive. It could get worst statistics but it must be cheaper.

That's because of walkers. Giving it worst statistics isn't going to change anything. In fact, that will only make it less useful in s v k and s v s

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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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  Apercent wrote:5) speeder spam - look on tit vs tit tournament final - 80% is speeder only fight. Also in any other game with Khr and Sap speeders are most important and most powerfull unit in titan arsenal. I suggest at least reduce his air -1 so it would help with sapiens (helicopters would be a little bit better) and against khrals. Also eclipse should be little bit better because now no one is using it against khral or Sapiens.

reduced air wouldn't at all help in t v t. And it's funny you say 4 air would make people not use it so much, because people use marauders all the time in s v k and s vs , and they've only got 4. Especially the pros.

6) I didn't see battery that used in Sap vs Tit (at least where battery is good help for sapien). Do you? I couldn't find any game from last tournaments games where battery was well used and helped sapien to win. You know why? Because it is to expensive. It could get worst statistics but it must be cheaper.


That's because of walkers. Giving it worst statistics isn't going to change anything. In fact, that will only make it less useful in s v k and s v s

I think you're right about walkers being why batteries don't get used, but wrong that a reduced cost wouldn't lead to them being played more. I think in a perfect world, a battery would be outside Walker range, shoot a plasma, then move after attack into range 4 with the Walker, where it would be able to trade reasonably well even with reduced stats. The problem is by the time the saps player has saved for one, the Titan player is tier long and it's too late. If a battery was significantly cheaper, even with reduced effectiveness, it could be more viable in SvT... Kinda like even w crappy stats, wyrms are still very useful in KvT

That's my two cents. But we certainly are just bringing our opinions right now, which I know isn't in the spirit of the discussion....
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Apercent

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Apercent

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Alright. Why shouldn't walkers be the prime? Why shouldn't they be kings? I don't get it, what's the big problem with that? They are the costiest units in game (excluding aquatic), not to mention, the slowest unit too. It's fair enough

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EVR1022

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EVR1022

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Two somewhat out of the box ideas:

1) Increase range of the Infector to 1-2. This would allow it to convert Marines without being killed as easily. Maybe a +1 defense boost as was suggested earlier, too. It costs a premium despite having the worst special ability of the healers. Make it worth the price.

2) Remove the 'minesweeper' numbers from buried underlings except when they are within the vision range of a healer. With undo turn becoming an official feature, all nearby underlings will be located by any serious player right now.

This would have little effect on K v T since Titans build up gradually and use many assimilators anyway. However, it would force Sapiens to build engineers, and would make it impossible for them to grind down underlings 3-4 hexes from their front line, or cover every underling when using Marines as a meat shield.

Other than this, Pinzer +1 air attack and Swarmer +1 ground light attack seem like the best options.
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