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Should the unit types be adjusted?
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Is it a good idea to implement a new class of units?
Yes - for the Marauder and Speeder only. 14% [ 1 ]
Yes - for the Marauder, Speeder and long-range units. 14% [ 1 ]
No - the game is fine the way it is. 71% [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 7
EVR1022

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EVR1022

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Presently there are four unit types: ground light, ground heavy, aerial and aquatic. 'Ground light' units consist of infantry, and ground heavy units consist of all other ground units.

I propose that we implement a new class of units: ground medium.

This new class would include Marauders and Speeders. It could also include the three long range units (Wyrm, Battery, Walker).

Why?
It would allow more precise balance adjustments. For example, the Swarmer's ground heavy attack was reduced in part because of how effective it was against the Eclipse and Tank-class units. If we implement this new class, we could adjust the balance of the Swarmer relative to the Speeder and Marauder without affecting its ability to fight the Eclipse or Tanks. Likewise, infantry could be balanced against those units without giving them the ability to play a major role in taking down a Tank. Further, when Xavi designs the new units having an additional unit type to work with will make it easier to keep things balanced.

Aside from balance, it also just seems logical to have a class that's between a Marine and a Plasma Tank.

What would it involve? Every unit would be given a new attack type (Ground Medium). We would need to determine the proper value for this to keep things balanced. In many cases, it would remain the same as the Ground Heavy attack. In some cases, units would see a boost against Ground Medium Units. For example, the Swarmer and the Eclipse come to mind. Other units could be weakened relative to Tanks, but maintain the same strength against the Marauder and Speeder. The various infantry units come to mind.

I'd be very interested to hear what some of the top players think of this idea. Players such as uniKZ, Newbee, Fobos_rus, GOUT, earth, Legia, Kroeger, etc. certainly have a better understanding of the game's balance than I do, so any input you could give would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.
amidama

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Hakumen
EVR1022

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EVR1022

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  amidama wrote:how would you physically explain that a kinetic charge with a flight speed of 2 km/s hit and penetrate tank armor, but cant do the same with a armored vehicle?
weapons that should be used against artilery, speeders and tanks are the same, just the matter of armor thickness...
with infantry its understandable that they have low armor but they are using terrain to get bonuses, with aerial its obsious that they are moving too fast and can avoid non-guided missiles.
But why weapon that is designed to destroy tanks cant destroy an armored vehicle?


I suppose I can't, but I also can't explain how a Pinzer could physically attack aerial units. That said, it's necessary for the Pinzer to be able to attack aerial units so that the game remains balanced.

Further, I think it's reasonable to assume that a lighter weight, faster unit like a Marauder has less armor than a Tank, and therefore would be easier for a Marine to damage.

Honestly, though, I don't worry too much about the 'realism' of the game because, well, it's not real. I simply think this adjustment could make the strategy more interesting.
amidama

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Hakumen
EVR1022

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EVR1022

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  amidama wrote:Yeah, pinzer is the worst unit from the realis point of view. Probably it can throw rocks, or catch low flying aircraft, it looks mobile enough =)
but Im strongly against any more shifting away from the realism...


Fair enough. I just value the strategy aspect more. TBH, the entire Khralean race is rather questionable from a realism standpoint. But they are cool nonetheless It's my favorite race even though I can't use them in random games for the moment. Too weak vs Sapiens, and too not fun vs other Khraleans.
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LkASr

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no, Uniwar is a much simpler game and it is fine as it is and it's not that worth it when it comes to the unit pool (8, but will become 10 in the future), and it also creates balance to the units themselves (tanks > cars > artillery (have mecha support for Walkers tho)), plus a group of 3 soldiers on terrain is more than a bargain against cars, heck Marines and Mechas can 1v1 a swarmer, 2 cars would make good bargain on an Eclipse (and aerial units) and run away for repairs, tanks are supposed to be walls for squishy units *ahem,artillery*, and aerial is meant for offensive pressure. It's just how you play your units.

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amidama

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Hakumen
EVR1022

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EVR1022

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  LkASr wrote:no, Uniwar is a much simpler game and it is fine as it is and it's not that worth it when it comes to the unit pool (8, but will become 10 in the future), and it also creates balance to the units themselves (tanks > cars > artillery (have mecha support for Walkers tho)), plus a group of 3 soldiers on terrain is more than a bargain against cars, heck Marines and Mechas can 1v1 a swarmer, 2 cars would make good bargain on an Eclipse (and aerial units) and run away for repairs, tanks are supposed to be walls for squishy units *ahem,artillery*, and aerial is meant for offensive pressure. It's just how you play your units.


Just to be clear, I'm not proposing ANY major balance changes. But even 1 attack point can make a significant difference in top level tactics. The only reason I'm proposing this is to allow us to make those balance adjustments without unintended side effects.
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Duaneski

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  EVR1022 wrote:
  LkASr wrote:no, Uniwar is a much simpler game and it is fine as it is and it's not that worth it when it comes to the unit pool (8, but will become 10 in the future), and it also creates balance to the units themselves (tanks > cars > artillery (have mecha support for Walkers tho)), plus a group of 3 soldiers on terrain is more than a bargain against cars, heck Marines and Mechas can 1v1 a swarmer, 2 cars would make good bargain on an Eclipse (and aerial units) and run away for repairs, tanks are supposed to be walls for squishy units *ahem,artillery*, and aerial is meant for offensive pressure. It's just how you play your units.


Just to be clear, I'm not proposing ANY major balance changes. But even 1 attack point can make a significant difference in top level tactics. The only reason I'm proposing this is to allow us to make those balance adjustments without unintended side effects.


interesting. I was on the same page as Amidama when I read this, as the 'defense value of a GH unit determines whether is it GH - heavy or GH - medium.'

But being able to tweak one point of GM and leave GH as is WOULD be nice.

I'm torn on the simplicity of the current system versus the ability to make smaller adjustments of your proposed system.

One thing working against this idea: I imagine this being a huuuuge rewrite. Not 100% if it'd be as bad as I think ... But I feel like having to go through and change every instance of a value for 2-5 units would be a pretty big undertaking.
EVR1022

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EVR1022

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  amidama wrote:
I can't use them in random games for the moment. Too weak vs Sapiens, and too not fun vs other Khraleans.

I agree, kharleans is the worst choise because of boring swarmerVSswarmer fights and being weak against sap. but thats the problem, offer something to solve it =)
for example make swarmers (very) bad against aerial and make wyrm much, much better against aerial or something like this. splitting the defence types will not solve this problem with kharleans, in my opinion.


I have offered suggestions to re-balance that in another thread. But I actually do think this could help Khralean vs Khralean when the new unit types are added. Logically, any new Khralean ground unit would either be ground light or ground medium. I mean, how many 'tank' type units can an organic race have? A ground medium unit with a solid aerial attack would do wonders for K v K battles (and K v S battles). Allowing the Swarmer to do a reasonable amount of damage to that unit would be important. If it's ground light, and the Swarmer can attack it with a power of 8 (likely change coming soon) from a range of 2, then that unit likely wouldn't be cost effective (probably would cost at least 200c). But if it's ground medium, then the Swarmer is only hitting it with, say, 5-6 attack power.
EVR1022

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  Duaneski wrote:One thing working against this idea: I imagine this being a huuuuge rewrite. Not 100% if it'd be as bad as I think ... But I feel like having to go through and change every instance of a value for 2-5 units would be a pretty big undertaking.


This is a valid point - I have almost no knowledge of coding so I have no clue how much work this would be.
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Hakumen
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  amidama wrote:marauder and tank has a defence difference of about 10 points. I dont understand so far, how exactly splitting ground heavy into ground heavy and ground medium would help?
any examples where you want to use this?


Good question.

I'm going to use Khralean vs Titan as an example. The Swarmer currently has a ground heavy attack of 4. This value used to be 5, but it made the Swarmer too strong against the Eclipse and Plasma Tank. So, the value was reduced. However, this changed the expected damage against the Speeder to nearly a coin flip between 2-3. This means that, right now, 3 fully healthy Swarmers will need 1 critical hit and no weak hits to take down a single speeder if they all attack from 2 spaces away.

If we implement my proposal, we could change the ground medium attack to 5 (the previous value for ground heavy attack), but leave the ground heavy attack at 4. Then 3 Swarmer will, most likely, kill the Speeder without having to take damage. And it makes sense (at least to me) that 750c worth of units and 3 actions should accomplish that.
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Hakumen
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  amidama wrote:it will mean that you will make two, very similar attack options, that will differ only for very high level players. thats a lot of complexity added.
exlipse is objectively quite weak, and is rarely used anyways. in other topic someone already offerd to make it defence better.
this, together with returning normal attack of swarmers will solve the problem.

and in general using swarmer, that is suppose to be anti-ground light against speeders, especially the most protected one, is a bad idea...

i mean that there are other ways to keep the balance, rather than making whole new set of rules to solve a single problem (you may want to add more example, where your solution can help)

example: swarmer is weak versus speeder or strong against eclipse.
simple solution (no new complexity added) - make eclipse better protected, make swarmer GH attack better, make speeders less protected (take any two. i would take first and second).
or hard solution: make a new unit type and add this attack type to all units in the game (thats about 24 values to add!)


1) It is true that it will add a lot of new stats for relatively small gains. That said, now that you can 'preview' damage, do many non-top level players look at the stats extensively?

2) Of your proposed solutions, higher defense eclipse may be viable. Higher attack swarmer is not, because that makes it better than 50% chance to do 2 damage to a plasma tank when it has +3 gang-up (relatively easy to accomplish with buried underlings). Like I mentioned in the OP, many balance 'solutions' like this have unintended side effects. The new type would really help at eliminating these side effects.

That said, it is true that these things would impact the top 25% of players far more than the other 75%. But I think that a better balanced game does make it more enjoyable for everyone, even if they don't fully understand why it is better balanced.

Another potential example - Buried underlings do a ton of damage to tank-type units (this isn't logical from a 'realism' viewpoint by the way . It might be beneficial to reduce their ground heavy attack to 2, while leaving their ground medium attack at 3. Small adjustment (and it would need testing - I'm not sure on this one), but certainly has potential benefits.

And in the previous example, the new type would help make the Eclipse a more effective, worthwhile build by giving it a solid ground medium attack.
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