drumstep
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drumstep
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Am I the only one who thinks hydronaut is too weak? I was playing a TvS game with moose today and we ended up in some naval warfare and he hit my hydronaut for 8 with his destroyer only taking 5. I was surprised so I checked the calculator. Turns out that is the normal rate of exchange. Given that these units are equal price I don't think this should happen even considering hydronaut extra range. Here is hydronaut stats compared to destroyers.
GL: +2. This is fine and it fits in with the additional range and barrage tactics for the hydronaut. But there are usually better things you can use your boat for than shooting infantry, and cheaper things that do that job just fine, so it isn't really that much of an advantage in my mind.
Gh: +0. OK, though I would consider boosting hydronaut by 1 to better solidify it's use as a beach barrage machine.
Air: +0. This is fine
Aqua: -3. I'm actually OK with this. Destroyers are meant to be the bane of boats, and with the range of hydronaut, boosting it's aquatic atk would probably not be a good idea.
Range: 2-4 vs. 1-3. This is what makes hydronauts special, but right now it isn't enough IMO.
Def: -2. This is the main problem for me. Hydronauts are quite difficult to defend given titans have no aerial units, and the fact that hydronaut is completely defenseless at range 1. Even if you pull off a hit from Max range against a destroyer and do five damage, the destroyer can come and hit you for at least 3 but likely 4 while taking nothing, essentially evening the score. Why should a half health boat do equal damage as a full health boat. Destroyers currently have both extremely high aquatic atk and a solid defense making it impractical/impossible to kill one without two hydronauts. My suggestion is to boost hydronaut defence to 11, or lower destroyer defence to 11, or even both. This still gives destroyer the upper hand in boat to boat combat, but doesn't make it a completely crippling hit for hydronaut. It would also make hydronaut slightly less vulnerable to it's archenemy the garuda.
Just my thoughts. Let me know what you guys think
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LkASr
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LkASr
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2-4 is fine as it is and it's an optimal ship for larger maps
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Never surrender when you still have the chance.
"I have achieved navel superiority" -myself 2017
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Duaneski
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Duaneski
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In the (admittedly few) naval games I've played with TvS, the person to win the seas is the player who commits to spending credits there earlier and or more often.
The hydronaut, if it is in play first, can often get the first attack on the destroyer, on average dealing 5 damage with no retaliation (range 4).
So then the destroyer is sitting at 5 health and would deal on average 4 damage to the hydronaut .. The hydronaut then retreats 3 spaces and deals 2 damage. The 3 health destroyer can only do 1 damage average to the hydronaut. So it isn't impossible for hydronaut to win
Unless you get it out late. Then you're screwed. Ish. Your walkers are still exceptional versus destroyers at range 4-5 of course
Given that the hydronaut can win the sea battle. And it can affect the land battle more, I am good with its stats and setup as is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Feb 27, 2016 22:44
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Apercent
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Apercent
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Duaneski wrote:In the (admittedly few) naval games I've played with TvS, the person to win the seas is the player who commits to spending credits there earlier and or more often.
The hydronaut, if it is in play first, can often get the first attack on the destroyer, on average dealing 5 damage with no retaliation (range 4).
So then the destroyer is sitting at 5 health and would deal on average 4 damage to the hydronaut .. The hydronaut then retreats 3 spaces and deals 2 damage. The 3 health destroyer can only do 1 damage average to the hydronaut. So it isn't impossible for hydronaut to win
Unless you get it out late. Then you're screwed. Ish. Your walkers are still exceptional versus destroyers at range 4-5 of course
Given that the hydronaut can win the sea battle. And it can affect the land battle more, I am good with its stats and setup as is.
Well said.
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drumstep
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drumstep
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Duaneski wrote:In the (admittedly few) naval games I've played with TvS, the person to win the seas is the player who commits to spending credits there earlier and or more often.
The hydronaut, if it is in play first, can often get the first attack on the destroyer, on average dealing 5 damage with no retaliation (range 4).
So then the destroyer is sitting at 5 health and would deal on average 4 damage to the hydronaut .. The hydronaut then retreats 3 spaces and deals 2 damage. The 3 health destroyer can only do 1 damage average to the hydronaut. So it isn't impossible for hydronaut to win
Unless you get it out late. Then you're screwed. Ish. Your walkers are still exceptional versus destroyers at range 4-5 of course
Given that the hydronaut can win the sea battle. And it can affect the land battle more, I am good with its stats and setup as is.
3 health destroyers are just about guaranteed to do 2 damage to hydronaut. A hydronaut getting first strike would probably still win like you say, but it is in my experience harder to get first strike than you suggest. The destroyer has extra mobility and vision, so the area it is able to attack is actually the same as for hydronaut, 7 spaces away. Also worth considering is the fact that hydronaut can't see that far, and titans don't have any effective over water scouts unless the map allows speeders to work for that. What this means is that destroyer is able to "sneak up" on a hydronaut and get a free hit, unless you are already camping the enemy harbor or have multiple hydronauts, at which point they will probably have another destroyer. And to be honest, on maps where Navy actually matters, whoever gets the boats first is in better shape anyway, it's just easier for saps to recover since they also have the cheaper heli available.
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Duaneski
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Duaneski
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drumstep wrote:
Duaneski wrote:In the (admittedly few) naval games I've played with TvS, the person to win the seas is the player who commits to spending credits there earlier and or more often.
The hydronaut, if it is in play first, can often get the first attack on the destroyer, on average dealing 5 damage with no retaliation (range 4).
So then the destroyer is sitting at 5 health and would deal on average 4 damage to the hydronaut .. The hydronaut then retreats 3 spaces and deals 2 damage. The 3 health destroyer can only do 1 damage average to the hydronaut. So it isn't impossible for hydronaut to win
Unless you get it out late. Then you're screwed. Ish. Your walkers are still exceptional versus destroyers at range 4-5 of course
Given that the hydronaut can win the sea battle. And it can affect the land battle more, I am good with its stats and setup as is.
3 health destroyers are just about guaranteed to do 2 damage to hydronaut. A hydronaut getting first strike would probably still win like you say, but it is in my experience harder to get first strike than you suggest. The destroyer has extra mobility and vision, so the area it is able to attack is actually the same as for hydronaut, 7 spaces away. Also worth considering is the fact that hydronaut can't see that far, and titans don't have any effective over water scouts unless the map allows speeders to work for that. What this means is that destroyer is able to "sneak up" on a hydronaut and get a free hit, unless you are already camping the enemy harbor or have multiple hydronauts, at which point they will probably have another destroyer. And to be honest, on maps where Navy actually matters, whoever gets the boats first is in better shape anyway, it's just easier for saps to recover since they also have the cheaper heli available.
There are a lot of hypotheticals mixed in there.
Assuming the hydronaut knows where the destroyer is, there isn't any reason for the destroyer to get the first strike unless it is coming out too late to dictate position. You are correct in your assessment of both units having the same threat range.
So either side is able to dictate the terms of engagement given that they're both aware of the other units existence.
Until naval engagement occurs the hydronaut should have a better impact on the land battle.
Which should encourage the saps player to move into range of the hydronaut, setting up the Titans player for the first attack.
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Duaneski
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Duaneski
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Also, consider keeping walkers within 3 or 4 hexes of the shore line and keeping your hydronauts near the shore. This will provide additional fire support for your fleet and maybe extra vision. It makes sense anyway since you probably have the boat to support your land army anyway
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drumstep
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drumstep
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My defence change wouldn't even change that much, just to 5-6/7-8 instead of the straight up 5/8.
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drumstep
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drumstep
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Duaneski wrote:Also, consider keeping walkers within 3 or 4 hexes of the shore line and keeping your hydronauts near the shore. This will provide additional fire support for your fleet and maybe extra vision. It makes sense anyway since you probably have the boat to support your land army anyway
Them being closer to land makes them more easily threatened by other things. 1 extra defense would also make it so heli and garuda deal 3-4 instead of 4. We might not even need to lower destroyer defence, just give hydronaut 1 point.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Feb 28, 2016 02:07
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Apercent
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Apercent
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The problem with that is that this will make s v t like s v k. The leviathan already seem to almost as good as Destroyers and cost 200 less. The thing is, however, sapiens have helis and batteries to help them counter leviathan. What will saps use to counter hydronaut? Hydronaut are as powerful as eclipse vs helicopters, so they can't use helis. Batteries have the same range as hydronauts, so that wouldn't be a good idea. The best solution right now is to keep things the way they are.
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