Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

Recent

Hottest

Forum Index » General Discussion
1 2 ► Go Go to page...

Author

Message

Feb 27, 2016 20:23

Subject: Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

hexmayor330

Messages: 5,
Joined: Feb 27, 2016,
Offline

Hello everyone,

My six-month playing experience has led to a few questions. For starters, I played the first 100+ games over 4-5 months without knowing about either alt accounts or turn undo. So fog of war (FOW) was a real thing for me. I was fairly active reading chat and forum posts looking for strategy tips, but it took that long to discover the concepts. I bought the undo button, pleased to support the game and developers. My most recent 20 games or so have featured the turn undo button. Thus far, I have played only random ranked solo.

First question: is there a general consensus about the ethics of using it? My general feeling is that most players use it liberally for recon scouting. I have seen a few posts that suggest the posters do not use it for scouting. Maybe it would be a good idea for players to chat at the beginning of a game to agree on how it should be used for that match? I use it to fullest capacity but would be happy to agree not to in a game.

Second: would it be a good idea to include a little more communication/transparency regarding undo for new players? My experience surely is not that uncommon. Obviously, the goal is to attract and keep players. The undo button probably looks like "pay to win" for the newbie. At some point, the light will go on about alt accounts and the way to get undo for free. Maybe they will be upset about not knowing "the secret" for a while and losing games they might have otherwise won, maybe not. I was upset about having lost some games to finger fumbles (I only play on my phone) but generally was happy and excited to have made it to 2200 without knowing undo. But it seems the more info provided about the game at the outset, the less likely to lose new players.

Finally, having recently played games where FOW was real and then not so much, my personal opinion is that the game is better and more enjoyable WITH FOW. When FOW is real, each turn requires more thought and strategy. There is great enjoyment in setting up and executing ambushes, and seeing whether they work. FOW just makes the game deeper and better imho. Maybe this issue has already been talked through and decided before I got here.

In my view, undo is valuable for fixing mistakes and fumbles. Mistakes generally don't happen more than a time or two in a game, though. What about undo per turn limits? In any event, it might be good to agree at the beginning of a game about scouting yes or no.

Feb 29, 2016 07:20

Subject: Re:Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

nindatana

Messages: 64,
Joined: Feb 18, 2016,
Offline

I agree FOW makes for a richer game.

I think undo for purpose of recon is unethical, is cheating. However I don't know what could be done about that, short of just asking people to be honourable. Perhaps in the beginning through chat like you suggest would keep honest people honest. A repeated system message of same would just flip the ignore bit in people's heads and be counter productive, I think.

If undo had a time cost it might help, e.g. 1st use costs 5min, 2nd ten and so on. However at present this would only affect people using the button, in effect punishing only the honest or broke. From other threads a remedy would have to involve the clients communicate with the the server constantly, or after every in-turn move. A major undertaking.

Sadly I'm beginning to think the best response might be to do away with the pretense that fog of war, and just remove it entirely. At least until such time as undo can be implemented fairly.

Feb 29, 2016 10:46

Subject: Re:Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

legia

Messages: 109,
Joined: Jul 17, 2015,
Offline

Undo trick is legal and well known. I made video tutorial for those players which don't know how to do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzeveSXD9ag

[youtube]NzeveSXD9ag[/youtube]

Undo button makes it just faster and more comfortable.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at Feb 29, 2016 10:56

I am somekind of veteran here. Check my videos about UniWar on YouTube: LINK.
Playlist in English: LINK.

Feb 29, 2016 11:01

Subject: Re:Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

amidama

Messages: 312,
Joined: Dec 28, 2015,
Offline

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jul 17, 2016 22:25

Hakumen

Feb 29, 2016 14:46

Subject: Re:Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

hexmayor330

Messages: 5,
Joined: Feb 27, 2016,
Offline

legia wrote:Undo trick is legal and well known. I made video tutorial for those players which don't know how to do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzeveSXD9ag

[youtube]NzeveSXD9ag[/youtube]

Undo button makes it just faster and more comfortable.

Thanks for the video tutorial. I think it is a great service to newer players.

I agree undo trick is legal, but is it ethical for recon scouting? Some have opined that it is cheating. I don't feel strongly either way at this point but both sides should agree on fair tactics.

Undo via alt account is not "well known" to new players. It takes awhile to discover it.

Feb 29, 2016 15:49

Subject: Re:Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

amidama

Messages: 312,
Joined: Dec 28, 2015,
Offline

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jul 17, 2016 22:26

Hakumen

Feb 29, 2016 23:53

Subject: Re:Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

hexmayor330

Messages: 5,
Joined: Feb 27, 2016,
Offline

Really good point about damage control, agreed

Mar 01, 2016 05:20

Subject: Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

nindatana

Messages: 64,
Joined: Feb 18, 2016,
Offline

I'm not sure I understand bit about damage control. Do you mean using undo for the purpose of testing how much damage various attack tactics would acheive and then selecting and "saving" the best one?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Mar 01, 2016 05:21

Mar 01, 2016 08:15

Subject: Re:Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

StarryBlink

Messages: 184,
Joined: Jan 04, 2012,
Offline

@Hexmayor. I agree that we should find the way to make the fog of war real.
It will enhance an experience of this game.
And make the game fair for all players.

Your idea about limit amount of using undo is interesting.

For example. Make an undo button has a cool-down time of 7 turn for each game slot.
That will dramatically reduce using undo button for scouting.
Otherwise they loss an opportunity to undo when they really make a mistake.

By doing that, we have to eliminate an option to undo by switching account.
But I think that's better. Make this game fair for all players.
And increase support for the developers.

Mar 01, 2016 08:32

Subject: Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

LkASr

Messages: 752,
Joined: Sep 24, 2015,
Offline

I agree on the undo limit, that way undo spamming won't be a thing

Never surrender when you still have the chance.
"I have achieved navel superiority" -myself 2017
All the good stuff

[WoT Generals Beta Tester, Uniwar Beta Tester, Vainglory Hero Suggestions List Contributor]
Come look at my profile for more info

Mar 01, 2016 14:49

Subject: Re:Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

amidama

Messages: 312,
Joined: Dec 28, 2015,
Offline

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jul 17, 2016 22:25

Hakumen

Mar 03, 2016 14:35

Subject: Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

hexmayor330

Messages: 5,
Joined: Feb 27, 2016,
Offline

nindatana wrote:I'm not sure I understand bit about damage control. Do you mean using undo for the purpose of testing how much damage various attack tactics would acheive and then selecting and "saving" the best one?

Yeh, exactly that. Bottom line is, the game is fair only if both players are using undo in the same way. If not, it provides significant unfair advantage.

Mar 04, 2016 07:28

Subject: Re:Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

Michaelrn

Messages: 80,
Joined: Feb 16, 2016,
Offline

Hello, people!

This is my first post here. I am relatively new to Uniwar. There are less then 2 months since I started playing it. I instantly fell in love for the game. Its play style resembles a lot the one from Advance Wars which I am a great fan. I'm not saying Uniwar is a copy of Advance Wars, in fact Uniwar is a great game on its own. I want to share my opinions about FOW and undo turns. I may be new to the game, but I think that I already have a notion of it, my score is +2100.

I have mixed feelings about undoing turns. First of all, it is a tool that can be used to scout. That ruins a bit all the strategic planning (and fun) needed to act while taking into account a real FOW. It can also be used to control the damage. You just have tro try different attack sequences untill you find one that you think is the best. So you can the predict the randomness of the damage and use to your favor (not so random after all!). These two aspects that I mentioned provides advantages in a way that I think that is not supposed to exist in a fair match.

But the undo turn mechanism is not that villain. I remember how glad I was when I discovered about it. It saved me to ruin a very good game in which I made an accidental move with one of my units. that happens sometimes with me. Sometimes I am scrolling through the map and when I notice one of my units is somewhere else. I like to be able to undo those ocasional mistakes.

So I see the undo turn as a necessary evil to have. But something can be done to prevent it from being abused. A nice solution, I think, would be first to remove the undo turn by "unofficional" means, letting it avaiable only with the undo button. That way is possible to control the undo. My idea is that at the beggining of a match, each player would vote to the limit of the times they can undo each turn, the limit ranging from 0 to infinite. If there is a tie, the voted valor is the limit per turn, otherwise the limit is equal to the lower valor +1 [or it could be set to the lower valor voted or to 1, whichever is greater]. That would be very democratic; if all the players want to play with no limits to undo the turns, then they can do it; if they agree to play with no possibility of undoing a turn, they can do it with no worries of the opponent ends up cheating; if one player votes for zero and the other votes different, at least the second player will be able to undo each turn once, saving him from occasional mistakes but preventing him from exploiting the undo turn to much for advantage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Mar 04, 2016 16:42

Mar 04, 2016 07:56

Subject: Re:Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

drumstep

Messages: 103,
Joined: May 17, 2015,
Offline

I think that voting idea is brilliant! I haven't heard a a suggestion like that before. This could allow higher ranked players who use it as a key part of strategy to agree for individual games to do so while keeping it fair for those who only want it for mistakes. It would probably require killing off the purchase of undo tokens though.
Full disclosure, I'm a pretty heavy undo user myself, but I usually only use it for damage optimization and mistakes and don't change my move based on extra scouting information.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Mar 04, 2016 07:58

Mar 04, 2016 11:13

Subject: Re:Questions/suggestions re vision, FOW and undo

StarryBlink

Messages: 184,
Joined: Jan 04, 2012,
Offline

amidama wrote:devs cant limit it so far, offer something else

Devs can limit it if they make the game sync to server every move. Not just when ending the whole turn like today.

Forum Index » General Discussion
1 2 ► Go Go to page...