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Next Balance Update Discussion April 2016
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Kroeger

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Kroeger

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The discussion for a new balance update is now open.

Please remember to back up your opinions with high level tournament game examples.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Feb 21, 2017 16:47

Abie

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Abie

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The most useless Unit in the game I've come across so far is without a doubt the Garuda. It needs a buff, preferably a defensive buff. It's just too squishy.

Look at the Garuda. It's useless against Titans with the Eclipse to counter it, or with the Walker to attack it. When the Walker sees it it will attack it undoubtedly.

Against Sapiens, well Sapiens beats Khr almost every time in my experience (I almost never lose this matchup). With one attack each in a turn, The helicopter can get a big chunk out of it, then a marauder and a marine can kill it very easily.

Garuda in KvK is not useless, because it can defeat a Swarmer convincingly. But even with that its not enough. 3 Swarmer attacks in 1 turn can get a Garuda down to less than half life. Swarmer spams beat Garuda every time.

The only way I see Garuda standing a chance if at all in KvK, assuming same number of credits used, 3500 credits in this example, is if there are 10 Garudas vs 14 Swarmers. Even so I don't know if Garuda could win this matchup.

It might just be me, but I see the Garuda as USELESS overall.
EVR1022

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EVR1022

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Khralaen vs Sapien remains a problem match up in my opinion. If you watch the Feb champ round 7 game between Fobos_rus and UniKZ, it's clear that the Khralaens simply have no chance of victory. Marines are just too strong, and the Khrals have no efficient way to take them down. Underlings get annihilated by helicopters. Swarmers don't do enough damage, and are very vulnerable to marines, marauders and helicopters. Garuda vs marines is laughably bad. That leaves the Pinzer and Wyrm, which are both relatively slow, unable to navigate terrain, and too expensive to be an effective countermeasure.

My proposed solutions:

Option A
Buff Swarmer defense +1 and ground light attack +2. This will enable two Swarmers (500c cost) to take down a marine in terrain most of the time. If necessary, the Swarmer could be debited elsewhere. Perhaps -1 aquatic, or -1 aerial (which might help KvK balance as the Garuda becomes a more viable option).

Option B
If it's not the Swarmer's job to kill marines, then it has to be the underling's. Buff ground light attack +2.

Option C
Finally, as always, I offer an 'out of the box' solution. Make it possible to purchase the converted units at a base. Cost would need to be higher than regular infantry, as these units are very strong. The 150c to 200c range seems about right. This likely would require some balancing of their stats and abilities (maybe no teleport for mecha II and no bury for cyber underling so that these abilities are unique to the original race). But an infected marine would be a strong countermeasure to marines, marauders and helicopters. A cyber underling would allow Titans to build an infantry that isn't ponderously slow. A mecha II would probably be useful to sapiens somehow, although I can't think of a specific circumstance at the moment. Sapiens are strongest, anyways, though so who cares about them

Thoughts?

[Edit: mistakenly put +3 instead of +2 in my option A suggestion regarding Swarmer ground attack]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Apr 07, 2016 18:56

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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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I want to see swarmers buffed. I really do. But personally I would like to start with +1 or +2 GL. Defense in my opinion should stay as is.

I am intrigued by -1 aerial as well...

Anyway, I agree with the KvS game cited above that it is clear the swarmer needs help. But I would like to cite the KvT game in February championship between Evr1022 and Killermax as possible proof that the swarmer shouldn't get TOO much help. +3 GL / +1 def / -1 air would have made that game even MORE of a slaughter than it already was. Noting that Evr built like a million swarmers there

Another game where Swarmers do a lot of work is Legia's January championship game versus UniKz. Swarmers hidden behind underlings effectively pressure and destroy marines and a helicopter

Maybe these maps are favorable to K to some degree.... Maybe a large degree. But in the end Swarmer is the unit doing the work in both of these games. So it's hard for me to say it needs a HUGE buff.

+1-2 GL for me, maybe -1 air to see what that does in KvK ...
GOUT

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GOUT

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Don't forget to fix converted mecha stats.

Duaneski, -1 air will hurt khrals v saps
EVR1022

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EVR1022

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@ Duaneski

Good points. Swarmer definitely still has it's uses. That map made them particularly appealing against Titan, however, because they had easy cover due to the mountain / lake. Normally you can't build that many without Speeders / Eclipse taking them down.

Also, I meant to put +2 ground light (edited now). 9 is the correct number in my opinion - 2 hit kill not guaranteed, but likely, vs Marine, and more of a coin flip vs Mecha.

In Jan Champ the map size was key - underlings were able to use their speed to pressure bases. Any map where Sapiens can build up the underling shield is far less effective (but also not to be underestimated).
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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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  EVR1022 wrote:@ Duaneski

Good points. Swarmer definitely still has it's uses. That map made them particularly appealing against Titan, however, because they had easy cover due to the mountain / lake. Normally you can't build that many without Speeders / Eclipse taking them down.

Also, I meant to put +2 ground light (edited now). 9 is the correct number in my opinion - 2 hit kill not guaranteed, but likely, vs Marine, and more of a coin flip vs Mecha.

In Jan Champ the map size was key - underlings were able to use their speed to pressure bases. Any map where Sapiens can build up the underling shield is far less effective (but also not to be underestimated).


Okay sweet. Because I like 2 as well

@GOUT - yeah I was thinking -1 air might make dinking helicopters a much worse proposition..... But garudas are so good against them that I could still be on board. Especially if swarmers are more effectively clearing marines so the Garuda can actually get to the helicopters. BUT I think just buffing GL swarmers and seeing what that does first is ideal
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Apercent

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Apercent

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  Abie wrote:The most useless Unit in the game I've come across so far is without a doubt the Garuda. It needs a buff, preferably a defensive buff. It's just too squishy.

Look at the Garuda. It's useless against Titans with the Eclipse to counter it, or with the Walker to attack it. When the Walker sees it it will attack it undoubtedly.

Against Sapiens, well Sapiens beats Khr almost every time in my experience (I almost never lose this matchup). With one attack each in a turn, The helicopter can get a big chunk out of it, then a marauder and a marine can kill it very easily.

Garuda in KvK is not useless, because it can defeat a Swarmer convincingly. But even with that its not enough. 3 Swarmer attacks in 1 turn can get a Garuda down to less than half life. Swarmer spams beat Garuda every time.

The only way I see Garuda standing a chance if at all in KvK, assuming same number of credits used, 3500 credits in this example, is if there are 10 Garudas vs 14 Swarmers. Even so I don't know if Garuda could win this matchup.

It might just be me, but I see the Garuda as USELESS overall.


Saying this comes true, this may be overkill to speeders and maruader, although I'm not sure if it would be ( they're still used against helicopter after all, and helis have 10 defense). I like the idea though. I think the swarmer needs a fix

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Apr 07, 2016 20:41

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Apercent

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Apercent

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My solution: +2 or 1 g.l, and Everyone here agrees on that I think.
Also +1 g.h. Yes, I know it can do 2 damage to a plasma , but come on, the swarmer can't stand up to neither maruader nor speeder with its current attack. It really isn't fair. The swarmer is only an anti garuda now a days, and if the garuda gets 9 defense, it will not even be that.

Also I liked the +2 g.l for underlings idea. I think they should only get +1 though (+2 sounds like too much to me)

Lastly, let's reduce mecha air to 4. I think that 4 was unnecessary and makes the swarmer impossible to use versus Titans.
Abie

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Abie

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  Apercent wrote:
Saying this comes true, this may be overkill to speeders and maruader, although I'm not sure if it would be ( they're still used against helicopter after all, and helis have 10 defense). I like the idea though. I think the swarmer needs a fix



There is more than enough discussion about the Swarmer. However the Garuda's stand little to no chance in any game that I play. This is why I consider it useless. Maybe it should be buffed for +1 to aerial, or +1 to G.H. as opposed to a defensive buff. I think makes more sense than a defensive buff. The fact that it is a squishy aerial unit should be expected because of its cost. But for the love of GOD, please buff the stupid thing.
Selexcis

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Selexcis

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the reason garudas stats are under powered because its the only flying unit that can heal at 2. I think more defense points is not a bad idea so that it doesn't just transform into a mini chopper. Having more defense will go along the line of good repair and tougher air blocker.

I do agree that i find it hard to justify playing garudas against any other race apart from khraelean unless the sapien player was notoriously bad and just built tanks and forgot they couldn't attack garudas (has happened before).
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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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  Abie wrote:
  Apercent wrote:
Saying this comes true, this may be overkill to speeders and maruader, although I'm not sure if it would be ( they're still used against helicopter after all, and helis have 10 defense). I like the idea though. I think the swarmer needs a fix



There is more than enough discussion about the Swarmer. However the Garuda's stand little to no chance in any game that I play. This is why I consider it useless. Maybe it should be buffed for +1 to aerial, or +1 to G.H. as opposed to a defensive buff. I think makes more sense than a defensive buff. The fact that it is a squishy aerial unit should be expected because of its cost. But for the love of GOD, please buff the stupid thing.


It is incredibly efficient versus aerial and GH. It is inefficient versus GL. So don't use it against GL!! Doesn't mean the units broken :p you're using it wrong

The OP requested you back your opinion up with examples from high ranking games.

If you wanted to say that Garuda is under used in those games and propose a stat change based upon specific evidence, that's what we are looking for. There are TONS of opinions so OP is looking for specific instances to back up those opinions
Abie

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Abie

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Please look at a replay of mine in my archives:
Random-269209 for a SvK game. The next time I play KvT I will provide a replay for it.

As for Garudas, I personally see no reason to get them because of all the anti-air. The Garuda is not that effective against air, specifically Helicopters, but you can't increase its aerial because that would effect it's attack against swarmers.

The Garuda is just too squishy to get, even with +2 heal, it's not enough. It's just so squishy that I won't get it even against GH. Because it is so squishy I feel no reason to get it, even against GH. It dies just too fast.

What about the possibility of giving it Move After Attack, like the helicopter?
Khr has no units that can do this, but Titans and Sapiens both have it.
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LkASr

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LkASr

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I have a suggestion for the Garuda, how about nerfing its mobiity to 9, but allow it to gain a 2nd action like the Marauder, but in consequence, nerf all offensive stats by 2

Never surrender when you still have the chance.
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LkASr

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LkASr

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I made a proposal on how changes would look like:

The current stats and my proposed changes:

http://imgur.com/a/VeQc4


1. I like the idea of having very fast Tanks in the field, that way it can support better despite of the armor shedding

2. I didn't like the idea of Marauders getting their (only) strength nerfed
-
3. Since the Swarmer is pretty squishy, why not give it an ability called Vulture, which basically means that it can attack again after killing a unit, but it can't move

4. I thought of the idea of making Garuda as another Marauder, shedding stats for double actions, making the Garuda a more optimal anti-heli and anti-swarmer, but being weaker to ground units

5. Pinzer would be ruining the balance of PvH fights so as well as ruining the balance if should the Garuda overhaul be agreed with, so I'd suggest putting it back to 2

6. Leviathan's vision is a complete joke, so having 5 is better
-
7. As of the meta of Plasmas, they're too slow on desert-rich maps, why not buff its mobility a bit, but at a cost of power vs aerials

8. I'd like Speeders to be more annoying so, how about buffing their move after attack mobility by 2

9. Eclipses are really devastating against aerials, which can really be a problem sometimes, why not nerf it a bit, since it can shoot up to 2 tiles away

10. Walker can only attack or move in a single turn and it can get to a lot of trouble when anything gets too close to it when there could be obstacles that can put a death sentence to it, add its mobility by 1.

11. Hydronauts would really dominate in 1on1 sea battles because of its vision, costing other races a lot of credits to shut it down, nerfing it by 1 would equate the outcome, I mean, a Hydronaut shouldn't be fighting by itself and should be in a small group.
-

12. I thought of the idea of making unique terrain advantages to the infantries, Marines would be advantageous in the mountains, Underlings would be advantageous in forests, Mechas would be advantageous in bases and also, I'd want their penalties be reduced a bit, just like the advantages above, Marines suffer less in deserts, Underlings suffer less in swamps, and Mechas suffer less offensively in deserts and defensively in swamps.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Apr 09, 2016 07:50


Never surrender when you still have the chance.
"I have achieved navel superiority" -myself 2017
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