| To better balance the game, should we improve the Speeder ability? |
| Yes, add EMP immunity and hover ability over mountains and water |
 
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22% |
[ 6 ] |
| Yes, add EMP immunity only |
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33% |
[ 9 ] |
| Yes, add hover ability over mountains and water only |
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37% |
[ 10 ] |
| No, the Speeder is already too strong as it is! |
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7% |
[ 2 ] |
| Total Votes : 27 |
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kralux
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kralux
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It has been frustrating for certain Titan players to be unable to do much against the Sapiens' EMP, especially when they are cranking a new engineer each turn on a small map.
In order to prevent this unbalance, we are contemplating making the Titan Speeder immune to EMP and possibly able to hover over the mountains and water.
Let us know your thoughts by participating to this poll.
Thanks!
The UniWar Team
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jul 08, 2009 15:00
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lion37
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lion37
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If the speeder is able to hover over water and mountains this will completely alter the balance of the game on some maps. For example in Peninsula, the entire game strategy gets altered by such a change. Dont do it!
As for the EMP: I am not sure how this change would alter game balance. Significant testing should be done to see what it results in. Maybe the Eclipse (and not the speeder) should be EMP imune? Or maybe being adjacent to an assimilator should make the units EMP imune?
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Anonymous
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instead of making them immune to emp, maybe just immobilize them so they can't move, but can still attack and defend for that round. that could just be enough to stop the engineer spam.
titans do need something that is just as mobile as an aerial. seems fair to me if a speeder can hover over mountains and water. they won't be able to take out a heli or garuda alone, but 3 or 4 of them would be a formidable wall.
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dragoon
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dragoon
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1, Yes to EMP immunity. Make engineers fear the speeders. All other healer/capture units have to be used very cautiously but engineers can just walk into a dangerous battle and shut the whole thing down.
2, Yes to speeders over water and mountains. This would make hydronauts much more unseful since you can have a unit protecting the spot they can't attack from. I say try it out and see if it's overpowered or not.
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5200
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5200
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Personally I like the idea of making the EMP disabled units immobile but able to return fire if attacked. That would go a long way towards evening things out. The sapien would get a tactical advantage as far as positioning units goes but they wouldn't get to go wail on the Titans without taking damage themselves. That's always seemed like the most unfair part of it all to me.
Speeders being immune is fine with me, but I like Titan-units-can-return-fire idea better if there's any room to consider it.
I love the idea of speeders over water. I'd actually suggest allowing them over water but NOT mountains just to shake things up a bit.
I also suggested somewhere else that assimilators be able to reveal the location of hidden underlings for one turn (and one turn only!) with their UV blast. Since it has such a long recharge time I think this could be a really nice addition and make them just a bit more useful.
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lion37
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lion37
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Let me be blunt as I think you are about to make a very big mistake. There are 2 key problems that need to be fixed in this game to make it more balanced. EMP and Mass Heli spam. The solutions presented above will not solve either one of these problems. Furthermore, I think you may start to lose players if you don’t fix these problems in the near future.
In most cases, having the speeder immune to EMP will not help much. EMP engineers are usually accompanied by several Helis that will make short work of the Speeders. A speeder with even 9 life cannot kill an engineer before the engineer EMP's.
It is simply unbalanced that the engineer can move two hexes and then disable two hexes further in the same round. The simple and obvious solution is that engineers can only EMP if they don’t move.
Also, I just hit an engineer on a base with my fully healthy Walker and he survived with 1 life. The Sap player then moved the engineer forward 2 hexes and EMP'ed me. He then built another engineer and repeated the same move over and over and over again. It is absolutely ridicules that I need 2 walkers to take down 1 engineer. You should reduce the engineer’s defense so that he dies from practically any hit no matter what terrain type he is standing on. This will at least give titans some chance to kill engineers before they EMP.
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lorfje
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lorfje
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Game rules need to have some logic. That a Heli's can fly is logical, but that a speeder would be able to go over water or that it alone would be immune to EMP is not.
If EMP works out to be too harmful to Titans, then just weaken its effect. There are several options to to that.
For example, the functioning could be slowed, not stopped. Take away half the movement points, 3 (counter-)attack points and one repair point.
Changes should be thoroughly tested, so I would like to repeat my earlier suggestion to create public testbeds for each change, and give some credit for solid experience-based feedback. Maybe invite people who just played games that would be affected by the change.
/edit, I would like to vote No & No, but the speeder is not too strong obviously.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jul 09, 2009 00:50
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5200
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5200
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Everything else you said aside, I have to point out that the speeder resembles an advanced hovercraft. Which is a vehicle that would easily be able to travel over water, even with our primitive technology.
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Gargoyle
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Gargoyle
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I like the Speeder over mountains/water idea. It adds a bit to the Titan's maneuverability, but the Speeder is not so strong as to totally destroy the balance of the game.
I don't mind the Speeder being able to survive EMP, but I don't think that will help drastically, again because the Speeder is realatively weak. I think lion37 had a better idea with reducing the Engineer defense a bit, so at least a Walker strike could take him out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jul 09, 2009 10:48
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kralux
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kralux
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Great feedback guys!
I do like Lion37's idea of not being able to use the EMP after a movement. It would limit their reach drastically.
Let's wait for a bit more feedback before making decisions on this.
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lion37
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lion37
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one more idea I just thought of. Any unit disabled by EMP should then be imune to EMP for at least 1 or 2 rounds. This will prevent the situation where mass EMP spam just shuts down a game by disabling units forever. It also makes logical sense since a unit just hit by EMP would probably take precautions to be imune for at least a short time.
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Hachiman
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Hachiman
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I vote for letting it do both... I think hover would be a cool addition, and make use of a currently underused/underpowered unit. It might even help Titans a bit vs Heli's, by giving them similar mobility.
But I don't think even that is enough. The Engineer needs toning down, or the Titan needs a better way to deal with it. Several of the suggestions on how to do that in this thread are excellent.
I also like the idea of assimilators UV revealing underground units for 1 turn. UV is a bit weak.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jul 11, 2009 16:33
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Kevor
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Kevor
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Wow, this is a great discussion! I agree with Lion37 as well. Game rules should be logical and internally consistent. I see no reason why speeders would be immune to the EMP. (After all, they're the lightest unit, and therefore the least likely to have the kind of armor/shielding necessary to survive the EMP.) I think it makes a lot more sense for engineers to not be able to move and EMP on the same round. That makes sense to me. (After all, they've got to set up a controlled nuclear explosion and that takes time and care -- can't do it on the run!) And it would go a long way toward making the engineer just a little less fearsome. (I too have experienced the wave of engineers on a small map... not fun...) I also think the immunity-to-EMP might help too, although I have no idea how difficult that would be for the guys at Xpressed to implement...
As for letting speeders go over land and mountains, that strikes me as a separate issue, and one that should be thought about carefully in terms of game balance. On certain maps the titan is at a huge disadvantage if there are lots of mountains and water, since the only unit that can cross a mountain is the lowly mecha. Sure, you can teleport mechas and eclipses anywhere, but we all know that this is can be defeated easily if your opponent acts quickly during the cooldown time. I think it makes a certain sense to let the speeder go over mountains and water, because it is the weakest heavy ground unit (and I guess I imagine it being lighter and able to float off the ground anyway). However, that leads to certain consequences -- is it now considered an aerial unit? Or is it still ground heavy? My first impression is that it would be best to keep it ground heavy, and not make it like an aerial unit, which treats all hexes (except bases) the same. Right now, the number of movement points (MPs) for mountain and water hexes is N/A for the speeder. It pays 3 for normal hexes, 6 for forest and and swamp, 4 for sand dunes, and it has a mobility of 14. Here's a suggestion: make the cost for mountains be 8, and water hexes 4. That way, it can only cross a max of 1 mountain hex per turn. (For example, it could do 1 forest and 1 mountain hex in a move.) It could also do 3 water hexes per turn, allowing it to keep up with the hydronaut. This would go a long ways towards making the hydronaut, which is the most expensive unit, a little less helpless toward units that get right in its face.
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No battle plan survives contact with the enemy...
(Helmuth von Moltke, Generalfeldmarschall of the Prussian Army) |
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Kevor
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Kevor
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PS: When I said 'immunity-to-EMP' up there, I meant Lion37's idea of making a unit temporarily immune to EMP for 1-2 turns after the last time it got fried by an EMP. It makes sense, and it helps game balance.
On the other hand, I don't like so much the idea of reducing units' mobility or allowing them to fire back after they've been EMP'd. If you've been hit by an EMP, you're OUT. Period. That's how they work. If you change the game dynamics of the EMP, then don't call it an EMP. (Yes, I know that we can change the rules however we like, but I think one of the strengths of this game is how it is tied to reality... or at least some bizarre sci-fi version of reality... you know what I mean.)
I much prefer making it harder for the engineer to carry out the EMP. The Sapiens need to have to work harder to do that. Making the engineer unable to move before firing off the EMP is essential. I also like the idea of reducing the engineer's defense (but not TOO much, please!) Those 2 things (plus perhaps the temporary immunity of all units towards EMP after recovering from the last one) would probably be enough to wipe out the imbalance that currently exists, without changing the essential character of the EMP ability itself -- which I think is very cool, and should be maintained.
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No battle plan survives contact with the enemy...
(Helmuth von Moltke, Generalfeldmarschall of the Prussian Army) |
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nlb149
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nlb149
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Speeders being able to go over water would give the titans a HUGE advantage in naval fights. As long as you had a speeder in front of your hydronaut, which is relatively inexpensive, you would basically be guaranteed victory in a naval fight. The sapian or kal player would be forced to either attack the speeder or attack the hydronaut from 2 or 3 spaces away and lose the only advantage they have and then the hydronaut could just back up and attack the sapian/ka ship with no repercussions.
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