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Proposal: Make buried underlings visible to the enemy
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Porphyr

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Porphyr

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Justification:
Basically every experienced player knows how to spot buried underlings, using the little golden numbers and lots of undo.
This is a very cumbersome puzzle task, time consuming and distracting. The time spent on counting numbers and underlings should rather be available for thinking about strategy.
Also, if there is a lot of buried underlings, locating them all either requires very good memory (which I lack) or pen&paper (which I not always have at hand).
So there is a lot of occasions when I would like to make a move, but can't due to the above mentioned restrictions.

I would claim that only very unexperienced players believe in the invisibility of underlings because they have not yet learned how to uncover them.
I admit that at the beginning this makes them both fascinating (an invisible unit that can sneak close to enemy bases or behind his lines) and frightening (they suddenly and unexpectedly pop up).
Beginners typically send only a few underlings (which restricts their usefullness because they cannot use gangup and are easily covered).
Fascination stops as soon as you encounter opponents that "magically" always move their heavy units on top of the underlings.

So finally everybody knows how to "see" them and how to use them: send masses of underlings, and then to trouble starts: play minesweeper.

I would like to get rid of this tedious task.

That's why I propose making buried underlings visible to the enemy as well. As described above, this would only affect balance for those that don't know the meaning of these little golden numbers.

In comparison to the other options discussed in chat, this one would affect gameplay and balance the least (if at all).
A variation could be that they are only visible on fields directly adjacent to own units (not at full visibility range) - similar to the detection with the golden numbers this would leave some more of the "sneakiness" of the underlings.

Another proposal from the chat was to make them completely undetectable (not even with golden numbers), but reduce the unbury bonus. But I think this would drastically change balance as it would be much easier to protect against that.

I would like to get the discussion started and hope that an acceptable and implementable solution can be found.
amidama

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amidama

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jul 17, 2016 22:54


Hakumen
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wookieontheweb

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wookieontheweb

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What if the engineer had a scan option with say 3 turn cool down. Underlings are completely invisible underground unless scanned. They are visible for the rest of that turn only. Scan range about 6.
My justification is:
KvK underlings can just be invisible as both sides have them.
KvT titans can produce assimilators and turn the underlings when they pop up. So again they can be invisible
KvS saps have no defence if underlings are completely invisible. With a scan option you could now produce a few engineers and scan in turn and reveal the underlings. So again underlings could be invisible.

Not sure if the scan should do anything else e.g. reveal fog, paralyze underlings, etc
amidama

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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jul 17, 2016 22:54


Hakumen
sonbalin

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sonbalin

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It's got nothing to do with undo IMO. You can figure out where underlings are without undo as you don't need to confirm a move to get the pretty little numbers - Just 'soft move' a unit and cancel it.
amidama

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Hakumen
sonbalin

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sonbalin

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Yes, for those 2 specific move types for 2 units. For 1st marauder move, normal mecha move and the other 22 units that are capable of discovering buried underlings it isn't necessary though. Honestly undoing over and over just sounds like too much hard work for me - I don't care where the buried underlings on the other side of a 4 player map are, just the ones that can actually hit me.
amidama

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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jul 17, 2016 22:55


Hakumen
sonbalin

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sonbalin

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Even if you have to kill stuff first, you can still only advance units so far. Once you've killed the enemy units the rest of your units can still 'soft move' and cancel. As for underlings buried under enemy units, you can usually figure those out anyway unless you're completely overrun by buried underlings. If you're completely overrun by buried underlings and don't have a significant advantage that you can push with anyway then you've already messed up that game most of the time.
drumstep

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drumstep

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I feel like it should be noted that the "soft undo" to find underlings has only existed since a week or two ago. It is likely a bug and therfore should not be used as a counter argument against fully visible buried underlings.
sonbalin

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sonbalin

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  drumstep wrote:I feel like it should be noted that the "soft undo" to find underlings has only existed since a week or two ago. It is likely a bug and therfore should not be used as a counter argument against fully visible buried underlings.


I've been using that method since I started playing...in April I think.

I didn't realise this was a recent thing because of that, just presumed it was normal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jun 10, 2016 23:16

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Aristotle

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Aristotle

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  amidama wrote:Read the topic again... thr whole idea is to change the undo vs underling behavior. Any sort of action will be used with undo again! You cant stop players from getting new information by undo, if they can do it - they will.

Thats why any active scanning will not make situation any better.

if underling will be invisible then it will need some changes in stats.
But for now its good enough to make it simply visible


You got the point.Maybe we should make it visible but with higher mobility.
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wookieontheweb

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wookieontheweb

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Sorry I was wrong in my original reply a scan option is useless because of undo. However I think underlings should be invisible they're just way more interesting that way.

How about seismic sensors on bases. Buried underlings appear to that enemy if they are within 4 hexes of that enemies base. If they surfaced then they'd disappear into the fog (not that it would matter with undo scanning).

They are scary when your're trying to attack their bases or in open terrain but less so in the safety of your own part of the map. Not even sure you'd need to nerf their resurface attack bonus, but maybe.
amidama

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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jul 17, 2016 22:55


Hakumen
Porphyr

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Porphyr

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I like to add that it does not really matter if it requires "real" or "soft" undo. It is cumbersome and a waste of time nonetheless.

I would also like to avoid adding complexity (both regarding gameplay, and also regarding implementation).

PS: I did a quick underling scouting run on a current game I play with amidama ( ). This is map "DiamondCenter", about 10x11.
Using pen and paper, it took me 11 minutes to find the 7 buried underlings (in the area of interest, that is).

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