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Blaster's Impact on the Meta and how to make GH viable again
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dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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I'd love to get a discussion regarding everyone's observations about the impact the blaster units have had on the meta of the game. I'm interested to see if my observations are seen at the highest levels of play (I typically hover around 1900).

Going forward, when I say "tanky GH" I mean Tanks, Plasma Tanks, and Pinzers. I'm not referring to speeders, marauders, etc. I'd be interested in seeing data that tracks each unit's usage before and after the release of the blaster units. My suspicion is that the tanky GH units usage has gone down quite a bit, and they're some of the least used units in the game (outside of aquatic and amphibious units). I anticipate it'll get worse when the 'watch an ad' feature comes out that will enable anyone to build units they haven't purchased.

Assuming you don't take a direct hit to your blaster for a couple turns, the cost effectiveness and damage output for a blaster is almost always better than a tanky GH unit. Where I used to build tanks in SvT, I now build boppers. Where I used to build plasma tanks in TvK or TvS, I now build Guardians. Where I used to build Pinzers in KvT, I now build borflys. Blasters are such a hard counter to the tanky GH units that I can't seem to find much use except to soak up damage, buy time, and for positional control, etc.

I've been brainstorming ways to balance these units' usage against each other but haven't come up with much yet. The most common counter to the Bopper seems to be a Speeder, and the most common counter to the Guardian seems to be a Swarmer or Marauder. Nerf the blaster units damage too much more and they won't be 'blasting' anything. The only thought I have right now is to bring their cost up 50 credits each. Then it'll make it even more important to protect them at all costs, which in turn will make them less valuable and used less frequently as you'll need to build other units and follow up with them in support. As it stands now, it's too easy for the blasters to be a large part of the army due to their relatively cheap cost.

Borfly - 250
Bopper - 350
Guardian - 400

I think this brings them more in line with their actual value and is a better solution than nerfing their damage any further. Perhaps a minor boost to defense strength (+1) to compensate for additional cost.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at Mar 15, 2017 19:56

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Cpt Hawaiian

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Cpt Hawaiian

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The anti-heavy units have definitely made tank units extremely weak. This really hurts titans most as they out of necessity turtle. I think they should be made weaker against amphibian units in particular. And, to be honest, even a slight nerf to their anti-heavy damage. Rather than a cheap ranged unit being able to almost half an enemy heavy unit, I feel like they should do 2 to 3 damage to a heavy unit like a tank, etc. And I think borflys should do no damage at all to ground light units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Mar 20, 2017 00:29


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wargasm

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wargasm

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I've been playing with the blaster units, but I don't own the guardian yet. I have all three amphibian units, and the S/K blasters. I definitely agree that when opposed by a field full of blasters, tanks become useless. I also believe that blasters have left Eclipses in the dust, because Eclipses are now used strictly for anti-air, despite being strong against amphibian and light ground units themselves.... why not use blasters when they cost half as much?

dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  wargasm wrote:I've been playing with the blaster units, but I don't own the guardian yet. I have all three amphibian units, and the S/K blasters. I definitely agree that when opposed by a field full of blasters, tanks become useless. I also believe that blasters have left Eclipses in the dust, because Eclipses are now used strictly for anti-air, despite being strong against amphibian and light ground units themselves.... why not use blasters when they cost half as much?



Just wait till you get the guardian. Titans vs. Titans seems to be an all-out speeder war with guardian support although I will say it seem that Sapiens have a slight edge over Titans.
dr. pepper

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dr. pepper

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  Cpt Hawaiian wrote:The anti-heavy units have definitely made tank units extremely weak. This really hurts titans most as they out of necessity turtle. I think they should be made weaker against amphibian units in particular. And, to be honest, even a slight nerf to their anti-heavy damage. Rather than a cheap ranged unit being able to almost half an enemy heavy unit, I feel like they should do 2 to 3 damage to a heavy unit like a tank, etc. And I think borflys should do no damage at all to ground light units.


Yeah, I think it's a tough balance because they could easily be nerfed too much and become useless. I like the damage they can dish out, but the tank units should be boosted in some way to make them more cost effective by comparison. The blasters are particularly good when they're on forests and mountains while still being fairly effective without the attack bonuses. Building tank units and marching them into blasters in defensive positions is suicide.
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LkASr

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LkASr

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I'd buff the Tank units instead.

As said I suggested an armor protection mechanic. Opposite effect to the Armor Penetration (capitalized to differentiate) mechanic. If both are to face off, the result is to subtract AP with ap.

The alternative is to also give the Tank units the new abilities Blaster units suppose to have

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Mar 21, 2017 20:11


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Kohtar

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Kohtar

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I think we need more experience before concluding. I already wasn't a heavy tank user before the new units, and my first reaction was to avoid tanks altogether. Now I'm starting to reintroduce tanks in my mix. Pinzers were already the best tanks, and they are now even more: they heal pretty well, which means they can sustain one blaster shot and stay alive, and they are the counter to speeder/marauder that khral desperately need. On the top of that, swarmers are excellent counters to boppers, and decent against Guardians. Another tactic against Guardians may be to back them with a borfly, which can counterattack on any guardian attack.

Sapiens tanks can still be useful against titans more or less the same way as before, but they are no longer OP, which is rather good for the game (titans had no way to counter a tank/engineer rush on a small map).

Plasma tanks have lost the most IMHO. I already thought they were the worst tanks due to their high price and their low healing; their low healing has become even more problematic now. On the other hand the guardian is the best antitank unit, so I think that titans are the race which has changed the most with the new units: they no longer need to turtle and have turned into a very aggressive race, with a lot of speeders supported by a few Guardians. Plasma may still be playable on a map where there is a healing spot on a strategic point.
igoslow

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igoslow

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Relatively new here, but what if tanks were faster in open terrain? And if that weren't enough, maybe they could be immune to infantry zones of control?
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StarryBlink

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StarryBlink

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I agree with cpt.Hawaiian that blaster units should do 2-3 hp damage to tanks.

To be specific, blasters should do 2 hp damage to tanks in normal circumstances.
They should do 3 hp damage to tanks only when they’ve got really good attack bonus.
And they should never do more than 4 hp damage to tanks.

Blasters should be weak and have no armor penetration against all units which are not tanks or ships.
Their attack against infantries & amphibians should be nerfed a lot.
Against aerials, bopper & borfly shouldn’t have any anti-air ability at all.
While guardian may keep some very weak anti-air capability like pinzer.

Some people suggest buffing tanks to counter blasters. But I disagree.
Tanks are overpowered before the born of blasters.
That’s why we called for blasters at the first place.
But blasters are owned by only minority of players.

If you solve blaster problems by buffing tanks, majority of players who don’t buy any units yet will wonder what on earth make developers think they should buff the already overpowered tanks.

And, as blasters are extra units, make them a bit underpowered is actually better to the game overall.
Make them being used in only specific situations like the case of amphibians.
Then players who don’t own them may able to win the game.
Reduce the inequality and the resentment for the game.
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LkASr

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LkASr

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  StarryBlink wrote:Tanks are overpowered before the born of blasters.


tanks were never op from the beginning, in fact they were crippling overspecializations with the old and the new meta. Bringing in Blasters meant that there had to be a way to quickly
kill a tank without costing too much and be a vood light artillery unit.

Nerfing Blasters means that they'll become an even worse crippling overspecializations. Defense is an essential stat that that determines a unit's capability. The blasters are already squishy and easily get zerged by cheap mooks and speed units. You see what I mean here. Buffing Tanks is a better idea as they could do something better than be slow piles of steel and bones that can't be relied on long distance and in the long run.

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simsverd

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simsverd

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we are discussing the tanks.. buffing defence is an option, but also lowering cost by 50 each is another. They still are usefull in a mix vs the light and medium units.

Its a wanted effect with less buildup/defence and faster action/result - which might be seen as a paradigmshift regarding the tanks..

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wargasm

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wargasm

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  simsverd wrote:we are discussing the tanks.. buffing defence is an option, but also lowering cost by 50 each is another. They still are usefull in a mix vs the light and medium units.

Its a wanted effect with less buildup/defence and faster action/result - which might be seen as a paradigmshift regarding the tanks..


No, buffing tank defense is NOT the answer. Then all other units will do nothing to tanks, even worse than the -1 I'm lucky to get with amphibians or light ground units if I'm standing on *perfect* terrain. A larger balancing act would ensue, of needing to increase other unit's attack power vs heavy ground units.

The solution is simple.... blaster units themselves need to be nerfed. It's too much of a crutch that 2-3 shots *EVERY* every other unit on the field. I can understand being a counter to 2 or even 3 types of units, but not ALL of them.

You shouldn't need a tank or a blaster to kill a tank. An army of strategically placed units should still be able to do the job, 1-2 damage at a time.
You shouldn't need blaster units to win against an opponent that is using them.

Oh, and for the love of god, *please* give Titan's tanks 2 regen.... it really is annoying to watch your health slip away while 1 single tank out-heals you while it blocks your path.
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LkASr

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LkASr

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  wargasm wrote:
  simsverd wrote:we are discussing the tanks.. buffing defence is an option, but also lowering cost by 50 each is another. They still are usefull in a mix vs the light and medium units.

Its a wanted effect with less buildup/defence and faster action/result - which might be seen as a paradigmshift regarding the tanks..


No, buffing tank defense is NOT the answer. Then all other units will do nothing to tanks, even worse than the -1 I'm lucky to get with amphibians or light ground units if I'm standing on *perfect* terrain. A larger balancing act would ensue, of needing to increase other unit's attack power vs heavy ground units.

The solution is simple.... blaster units themselves need to be nerfed. It's too much of a crutch that 2-3 shots *EVERY* every other unit on the field. I can understand being a counter to 2 or even 3 types of units, but not ALL of them.

You shouldn't need a tank or a blaster to kill a tank. An army of strategically placed units should still be able to do the job, 1-2 damage at a time.
You shouldn't need blaster units to win against an opponent that is using them.

Oh, and for the love of god, *please* give Titan's tanks 2 regen.... it really is annoying to watch your health slip away while 1 single tank out-heals you while it blocks your path.


Give tanks an ability each, which can make them more useful utility than just being wasted walls. Nerfing Blasters will make them really useless for effective cost, they're fine as they are. It's the tanks that need more attention than the other.

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Pento

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Pento

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Tanks are still very useful.
It's still hard to kill them.
The only units you can really damage a tank with is another tank / artillery and/or a blaster.
If you try to stop an tank with a blaster, you lose a lot of other options for your game. Blasters are quite slow and not very effective against air or troopers (except guardian).For an artillery you have to spend a lot of money plus defense. That takes your possibility for quick attacks. The best answer is still a tank. In a direct battle it lasts some time and prevents the rest of your troops to got run over by a tank .

Keep all like it is and take something of from the guardian. Still to good in everything.

Tanks are absolutely fine.
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LkASr

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LkASr

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  Pento wrote:Tanks are still very useful.
It's still hard to kill them.
The only units you can really damage a tank with is another tank / artillery and/or a blaster.
If you try to stop an tank with a blaster, you lose a lot of other options for your game. Blasters are quite slow and not very effective against air or troopers (except guardian).For an artillery you have to spend a lot of money plus defense. That takes your possibility for quick attacks. The best answer is still a tank. In a direct battle it lasts some time and prevents the rest of your troops to got run over by a tank .

Keep all like it is and take something of from the guardian. Still to good in everything.

Tanks are absolutely fine.


Tanks are slow and aren't reliable at large maps, yes, they're quite hard to kill, but once there are significant amounts of blasters and numbers of other units, their role diminish and become easier to kill.

So to this point:
+Very bulky and hard to kill
+Can shield squishier units quite well
+Great repair or attack power
+Reliable in smaller maps

all at +1 each

-Expensive (-1)
-Slow, thus not so reliable in larger maps and quite easy to get around them (-2)
Not much utility due to speed (-1)

I'd like to give them more utility or a bit more mobility (because tanks aren't slow anymore, just became more expensive) and their current stats are fine as well. I'd like to have the following:

+Give them an ability or mobility (+1 mobility)
-More expensive (+50 credits) or less defense (-1 or -2 def)

This way they could be relied upon more

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