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Tank Buster Unit Assessment Request
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WormDog

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WormDog

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So we have had the tank buster units out for a while. Bottom line I think they are too overpowered.
At this point in many games I find I just skip over heavies altogether as not being worth it. I see other players doing the same.
When judging if I should spawn a heavy, I frequently just decide against it, because it's too easy and cheaper for tank busters to counter it.
This has flattened the game to a mass of the middling units in many of my games. I don't think Uniwar is better for it.
It is true that on some maps and situations some units don't do as well, but I think this is more than that.
I would like to see the heavies have more legitimate reasons for their existence than they do now.
What do you think? Could the tank buster units use some re-balancing?
Do you think a poll is in order?
Pento

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Pento

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I see the tank buster as an essential part of the game. They give the game far more variety and prevents from those stupid turtle tactics combined with artillery.
Tank is still very useful just the use is different.
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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jun 16, 2017 02:04

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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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Yeah. I vote for nerfs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jun 16, 2017 02:05

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WormDog

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WormDog

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Okay, thanks for the reply Duaneski and Pento. I studied it quite a bit and I have a very detailed sheet of example damages, but the bottom line is the following suggestion.
Given that the Borfly is the main offender in being OP, and the Guardian and Bopper less so.

BORFLY:
  • Heavy ground attack from 6 to 4. Heavy AP% from 50% to 40%

  • Ariel AP% from 50% to 35%

  • Light ground attack 4 to 3


  • GUARDIAN:
  • Heavy ground attack from 5 to 4. AP% remains at 45%


  • BOPPER:
  • Heavy ground attack from 5 to 3. AP% remains at 35%


  • That is, small adjustments trying to increase the importance of the heavy and artillery unts.
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    Duaneski

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    Duaneski

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    The only change there I'm not sure I love is the aerial change for the boarfly. Can you walk me through the thought process there. (Only units really affected should be helicopter and Garuda?)
    A_square

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    A_square

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    I agree with Pento in that I feel tank busters are essential in the game. However, I think their role should be a little more niche than it is right now -- in the current state, they basically serve as low-cost mobile artillery, and cut into most of the use cases of Batteries/Walkers/Wyrm. I think one option that I would like to see is to make tank busters to have more pronounced weaknesses, in particular against GL and Air, while keeping (or only slightly nerfing) their strength against tanks. I think their current strength against Air is actually quite underrated, on neutral terrain, Bopper/Borfly deal on expectation 3-4! damage without retaliation against a Swarmer, and a Guardian deals 6. Given that tankbusters benefit from terrain, and air units do not, it is sometimes even cost inefficient to attack a Guardian with a Swarmer, which I think should never be the case.

    Btw, I think we can all agree that Borfly attack against GH should definitely not be 6 for a unit that costs just 200

    So: I'd like to see tank busters get weaker against GL/Air, and the Borfly in particular nerfed...

    Edit: Just saw that this is more or less in line with the suggested changes. Although I think Bopper's GH attack should not be 3, but 4, but I think this would need testing. I think Guardians Air attack should also be nerfed.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jun 08, 2017 21:05

    LexTalionis

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    LexTalionis

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    I think it has made tanks more situational. I don't think balancing of this sort is necessary, and certainly not the reduction of boppers from 5 to 3, unless you're going to give them some range changes rather than 3-3 only. Their power is balanced by their high vulnerability to close attacks or even range 2 attacks. I also don't see the reason for reducing borfly air damage, as this is one of the things that has allowed khralean to compete against helicopters.
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    WormDog

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    WormDog

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    BORFLY
    If a Borfly and a Swarmer have a stand off, I feel the clear winner should be the Swarmer. The Swarmer's whole thing is fighting in the air. But a Borfly is in the Tank Buster class. It's design should be such to pack a significant punch to the heavy, but at the cost of not having a great hit against the lighter units. Note here, that the lighter units can virtually do NO damage to a heavy. To counter a heavy without Tank Busters, you would need other heavies and expensive artillery, and strategically placed lighter units. But now, because the Tank Busters cost so little I am not seeing the heavies at all in many games. I would say no more than 25% of them, if that. Not because of well honed strategy but because Tank Busters are just so darn cheap. These units are dominating. In the games where they don't appear, it's only because nobody is bothering with heavies.

    So a Swarmer should deal more damage against the Borfly, than visa versa. By 2 points I think. Against the Copter I agree it should do something. Right now a Copter can expect 3 points of damage from a Borfly. But really I think 2 is more reasonable. That still would give Copters a pause. You can buy two and half Borflys for one Copter. A Borfly is cheap and it's focus should be Tank Busting, so it's advantage should be there, and not in other areas.

    Perhaps this then:
  • Ariel AP% from 50% to 40%. Defense drops from 2 to 1.


  • BOPPER
    They are already well balanced with a limited range of 3. The only reason I brought it down a little is to encourage the spawning of more heavies and artillery in the game.

    Before the Tank Buster came on the scene the feel of the game was such you would bring in the low costing units and work your way up to the high costing units. If you could get an early heavy and artillery in the game, and were able to protect it, you had a significant advantage. To properly counter the heavy, you really needed artillery. Not all the time, but that was really the deal. To do that was expensive and required strategy and planning.

    Now, to counter the heavy it's almost trivial. So trivial in fact, that in well over half my games now I don't bother. My team mate told me he NEVER builds a heavy. The heavy used to be THE defense unit. If you wanted defense, and could pay for it, you would have your defense in the heavy. Now, if you want defense what do you do? Well if you are Kharlean, you spawn a wall of Borflys. If you have some credits to burn, go ahead and buy that Pinzer. As kind of an expensive adornment to your armada of flys.

    GUARDIAN
    It's seem right that the Titans should have an awesome attack piece. So I only proposed a drop in one point for the base attack. This won't affect the damage they could put out at all with that 45% AP. Their low range and no regen ability seem to be adequate compensation for their power. Though perhaps you could drop their terrain bonus down a bit.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jun 09, 2017 14:11

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    Duaneski

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    Duaneski

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    One thing that also hurts, and you can't necessarily fix with blaster balance is... ability of the bopper to move two hexes and then trade VERY efficiently with a walker.

    I know you're not seeing tank class units in your games. But in my games, I still see them occasionally. What I'm not seeing, or very rarely, is artillery units...

    Would increasing their defense make sense?

    I don't see any reason they can't have a 8-12 ish defense at this point?

    Edit:
    Regarding your above post. I agree with what you're saying there for sure... Love it.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jun 09, 2017 15:27

    Pento

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    Pento

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    I agree each tank buster should have a real opponent unit.
    Said differently: they should be bad in acting with at least one kind off unit.

    Guardian can deal with everything. To much for my opinion. They should have a real problem with GL or air.

    Same with Borfly. For that price your can expect some inflexibility and a little less damage to air or GL.

    For me bopper seems fine. Deals little damage to GL and as well little to air(to little for my opinion: because only Khral would be affected and Sapiens have little choice to deal with air) and as well it doesn't seem "too" strong to tanks. Doesn't have defense at all and has a quit high price.

    Another option would be to make tanks a little stronger.

    Maybe:
    Plasma + 1 or 2 movement: Titans got quite fast with the new units. But the tank can't go that speed and is always behind the front line. It got useless because Titans turtle less and the plasma is to slow. Takes several rounds to bring it to Battle and in the meanwhile it got shot.

    Sapien tank:
    Still very useful against Sapiens and Titans but absolutly of no use if you play against Khral. It should have at least a little bit of air attack.
    1 or 2. Would only affect fights against Khral.

    Pinzer still great. No need for changes!

    That wouldn't change the effect of the anti tank units but it would raise the value of the tanks.
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    WormDog

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    WormDog

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    I think the problem I am having now is I was expecting more agreement that the tank buster units are over powered when I posted this.
    I don't know how I can approach Xavier with a proposal unless I have enough community backing.
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    Duaneski

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    Duaneski

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      WormDog wrote:I think the problem I am having now is I was expecting more agreement that the tank buster units are over powered when I posted this.
    I don't know how I can approach Xavier with a proposal unless I have enough community backing.


    ... I will see what I can do. Give me until Friday or Saturday ?
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    Duaneski

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    Duaneski

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      WormDog wrote:I think the problem I am having now is I was expecting more agreement that the tank buster units are over powered when I posted this.
    I don't know how I can approach Xavier with a proposal unless I have enough community backing.


    Can you maybe add a poll for this thread?

    "Agree with proposed NERFs"
    Yes / no

    ?
    Zardecil

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    Zardecil

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    I personally think that the borfly should give an even 4 damage.

    The problem with nerfing it to 3 is that borfly functions as a purely reactive tool. The extent of proactiveness it has is moving into a place where you Hope that there will be unit next turn.

    Reducing the damage that the borfly does will take that away from him. I would rather have a unit that forces tanks away but does 1 point to GL then have a unit that can't be proactive and positioning it effectively doesn't have that much payoff.
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