Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25

Recent

Hottest

Forum Index » General Discussion
◄ 1 2 3 4 ► Go Go to page...

Author

Message

Nov 29, 2015 08:00

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25

xavi

Messages: 554,
Joined: Jun 12, 2009,
Location: California
Offline

We will adjust this issue shortly, probably within the next days. Feel free to make suggestions.

-= The UniWar Team =-

Nov 29, 2015 09:15

Subject: Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25

StarryBlink

Messages: 184,
Joined: Jan 04, 2012,
Offline

unikz wrote:at this moment Marine is too strong vs air unit

1 helicopter+2 marines on mountain can easily fight 3 swarmers or 2 garudas, all 700vs 700-750

I think Marine is already fine.
If marine is too strong anti-air, then what about mecha ?
If you reduce marine's anti-air, sapien will be unable to use them as anti-aircraft anymore.
Then the game is likely skew further from the balance.

So, it seem like this game is, in fact, is already very balance pior to the adjustment.
The change should be done minimally, like fine-tuning a radio.

In my opinions :

Wrym : restore its previous ground -heavy attack. But you can keep its +1 air attack.

Swarmer : restore its defense.
Keep the change of -1 ground-heavy attack.
But instead +1 its ground-light attack.

Then swarmer won't be too strong against titan.
While you also make them more powerful in destroying sap marines.

If you think swarmer is so dominate in kharl vs kharl, you may -1 its air attack
then +1 more its ground-light attack (net +2).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 29, 2015 09:49

Nov 29, 2015 09:52

Subject: Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25

simsverd

Messages: 921,
Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
Offline

StarryBlink wrote:
In my opinions :

Wrym : restore its previous ground -heavy attack. But you can keep its +1 air attack.

Swarmer : restore its defense.
Keep the change of -1 ground-heavy attack.
But instead +1 its ground-light attack.

Then swarmer won't be too strong against titan.
While you also make them more powerful in destroying sap marines.

agree on wyrm. but you got it wrong.. it does not have a +1 air yet.. but it might get

Agree on swarmer and good idea on GH and GL.

And also consider buffing pinzer air +1 (to 3), then it will be a viable unit in K vs K and an more important unit in K vs S

Moderator of gamechat and forum. Tourney admin.

Send me a PM here or invite me to a game if you want to ask me something, suggest a map for tourney or just wanna play a game

Nov 29, 2015 11:14

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25

earth

Messages: 51,
Joined: Aug 11, 2011,
Location: UK
Offline

FOr me it's simple just restore wasp and wyrm to exactly what they where

Nov 29, 2015 22:55

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25

Needle

Messages: 21,
Joined: Nov 23, 2015,
Offline

I would agree with restoring defense for swarmers and keeping their -1 GH attack since swarmers are 250 units and therefore should be weak vs GH. +1 GL attack would also fine, it's their nature to be strong against GL.

We should consider taking back the +1 GH attack (i. e. 8 GH attack) for garudas since it makes garudas too strong vs marauders. Even a heli has only 7 GH attack.

With these changes I think we have a pretty balanced S vs K match up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 29, 2015 22:56

Nov 30, 2015 20:55

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25

Pixel Mush

Messages: 3,
Joined: Oct 05, 2015,
Offline

Here are my thoughts on the new update. (I am mainly a khral player) I have some points that other people have mention that I will not include as they have already been voiced. That being said; swarmers are terrible now. I have played around 15 games since the update (all as khral) and I have tried many build orders and played many different players at different skill levels. My suggestion and this may not be a popular one; give underlings a very low air attack if you are trying to change the kvk play which it seems was one of the main reasons for some of the changes. If underlings could do 1 damage to swarmers (even if it is only through terrain boosts or gang up) it would completely change the dynamics of kvk, which I believe was the point? The lowest (useful in kvk) unit would not be a flyer. Though it would still be little more than a blocker that 1 possible damage would force players to think and strategize differently if their swarmers could slowly be widdled down by underlings. And either A) give swarmers back 1 def or B) give the GH 1 back or C) give them +1 lg atk. If you return the GH to what it was before I believe the wyrm is just fine where it is as, but if not I think it should also be returned to normal. The +1 air atk for mecha is a nice cheap anti air for Titan, but taking away 2 GH from khral and only returning 1 has made it slightly on the unfair side (imo). I know I am no 2000+ player, but my other act is 1844 so I'm not terrible. That's just my two cents and like I said I did have other points but they have been voiced. -Pixel

EDIT: Also just to add if you added the above ^ for the underlings, it would literally not affect any other match up other than KvK

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 30, 2015 23:59

Dec 01, 2015 07:56

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25

Needle

Messages: 21,
Joined: Nov 23, 2015,
Offline

Keep in mind that 1 air attack for underlings also means a max 10 air attack with terrain, gang up and unburrow bonus. An underling could damage ca 7 hp to swarmers.

Dec 01, 2015 12:27

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25

Pixel Mush

Messages: 3,
Joined: Oct 05, 2015,
Offline

Needle wrote:Keep in mind that 1 air attack for underlings also means a max 10 air attack with terrain, gang up and unburrow bonus. An underling could damage ca 7 hp to swarmers.

Right, that's why I was saying only make it possible to attack through terrain. It's totally plausable for an underling to hit a flying unit (storywise) ontop of a MT or Tree. Plus I don't feel like the underlings should get a bonus to attack air when unburrowing so just take that off the table. And the problem of them doing 7 damage is gone. If they only got an air attack through terrain, or gang up is what I was saying above^ it would be the exact KvK equalizer that was needed.

EDIT: Example. So how underlings get +3atk on a MT tile now they would get a +1 air (or + w/e is necessary) as well. Simple as that. Their normal air attack would be zero. A good "MAX" hit with gang-up would be about 3 (+/- 1) dmg. But it would be a lot harder to gang up if you could only use terrain boosts to attack. Once again I am simply suggesting this change be made as it affects no other match-ups. This may weird people out, but it's a great option to still keep balance among races and improve same race playability/strategy.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Dec 01, 2015 14:34

Dec 02, 2015 17:54

Subject: Re

Gwalcmai

Messages: 11,
Joined: Jul 20, 2015,
Offline

A few thoughts after having played more than a couple games.

1. Something needs to be done about swarmer, which it sounds like devs and others agree. I like the idea of extra GL instead of restoring GH as that puts them more in line with speeder and marauder although they areally much weaker now against both of those directly. I do think it needs its defense back. The eclipse almost one shots the swarmer with minimal damage taken. Anyway, the extra GL and defense restored will keep an individual flavor rather than making cookie cutter units (at least worth trying out).

2. The wyrm GH decrease is concerning but I need to play more. I think it definitely needs the anti-air if we aren't going to restorend the GH.

3. The battery changes are too much, imo. The increase of 2-4 range I think needs changed back to 3-4. The mobility increase is good for it to bounce out, but one or the other, not both.

4. The tank upgrade to defense was okay. I think a 1 in AA would be worth looking into, but if it was, definitely drop marine AA by 1 too.

5. The pinzer AA increase was good. I don't know if I would increase it to 3 without a bit more tweaking of the other units first.

6. I still think leviathan is practically useless unless able to build an armada before attacking FIRST.

7. The Garuda GH increase seems to be okay and makes it an okay unit vs Titan now whereas before it would be harder to justify using. Especially combined with the AA decrease of the plasma tank.

8. The marauder GL decrease was good too. Being able to one shot an assimulator or infector was too much.

9. I agree with others about the randomness throwing a kink in the chess like strategy. I even complain to my friend frequently about how much I hate it sometimes. I have thought about it a lot though, and I would not like to eliminate it altogether. I don't know the formulas so if there is ability to make the impact SLIGHTLY smaller, go ahead, but if not please leave alone.

10. [Removed so I wouldn't sidehack this thread in any way]

Thanks all you guys do and the hard work not only the devs and their helpers put into the game, but also those who are solid players that I have enjoyed playing with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Dec 02, 2015 18:04

Dec 02, 2015 22:31

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25

kyle kroeger

Messages: 23,
Joined: Jun 01, 2015,
Offline

Here is an update on my thoughts about the update. (No one has taken me up in my offer to play a game. If you disagree with anything I say here, please create a game with me and show me my error... You pick the map and races)

KvS - big problem. Marauder is too strong and swarmer is too weak. (favorite ideas so far, Marauder - 1 air, swarmer +1 G. L., and wyrm +1 air)

KvK- better, but not good enough. Pinzers counter swarmers well, but they are not very mobile. The - 1 defense in swarmer has introduced more garudas. (favorite ideas so far, pinzer +1 air and wyrm +1 air)

KvT- much better. I'm not sure what you guys are talking about here. I think the swarmer and wyrm are still good in this match up. I am still winning all my games as Khral against titans and I still use and love wyrms and swarmers in this match up. I just have to be more careful. I know many of you disagree. Please make a game with me and show me.

SvT- much better, but not good enough (favorite ideas so far, battery +1 G.H.)

SvS- I haven't played much of this.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

(I may be missing something. If you strongly disagree, please take this to the battle field. You pick races and the map. This way we will come to an agreement faster than just throwing opinions at each other)

Dec 03, 2015 02:35

Subject: Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25

GOUT

Messages: 19,
Joined: Feb 15, 2015,
Offline

I agree with Kyle that k v t is pretty balanced. I have been winning with both races. Neither completely dominates and the balance shifts depending on the map layout. I have had to adjust playing style a bit with both races but I can still get 1-2 damage on a plasma w a swarmer.

K v K is much better than before. Still figuring out how to play this matchup but more units are used which is good. I would like the swarmer a little sturdier and Pinzer aerial at 3 would make them more effective. Right now they are good vs swarmers or as shields, but I think garudas should take a little more damage when fighting pinzers.

For S v K I really think Pinzer 3 aerial attack would help khrals. If deployed, I wouldn't change anything else on marauder or marine yet until the new pinzer is tested. Reducing marauder or marine air would mess up S v S IMO. Also I wouldn't increase wyrm air attack yet.

S v T the dynamic has definitely changed. And it seems highly dependent on the map. I previously thought battery ground heavy +1 was needed, but now I'm not sure. Tanks are much better, even though I miss crushing them like toy cars. And the new mecha vs helicopter is interesting.

S v S I haven't been playing much but tanks seem like a viable option if you are up against a bunch of marauders. Legia's point is interesting about only being able to stop a cap 75% of the time and should be considered. I would point out that this would only happen w/o roll manipulation and this type of randomness already exists in any number of other scenarios w other race combinations. So seems like mainly a map selection issue for tournaments.

So my wishlist for further changes is Pinzer aerial attack to 3 and Swarmer defense to 5. Would like to see how everything plays with those two changes before anything else.

Dec 03, 2015 20:36

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25

PowerFV

Messages: 2,
Joined: Nov 17, 2015,
Offline

I haven't had enough games with or against sapiens since the change to comment on unit effects there, but will vote against suggested changes for the marine. If feel like Infantry are supposed to be on the strong side if they capture the high ground, and as such feel that air loosing to mountain-top-marines is a feature and not a bug so long as the odds shift when the marines are on open ground.

Titan changes feel good so far. Further tweaking should wait until we have all adjusted to the new dynamics.

Khralean as noted have swarmer issues that need revision sooner rather than later. The Pinzer change was fantastic and is now is now solid middle ground between the Tank and Plasma Tank in air effectiveness. However this talk if further increasing the air attack sounds like too much too fast and should at least wait until all have adjusted to the new dynamic. Speaking of adjusting, I find I keep building Swarmers out of habit and usually regret the choice. The frail things have to be used and sheltered like miniature artillery or they get hammered, but lack enough attack power to be effective in this role. Swarmers should have either more attack to embrace their new role as flying light artillery or else have their defense nerf rolled back. Wyrm might need some adjustment, but any issues here are currently overshadowed by problems with the swarmer.

My favorite idea: +1 Swarmer defense

Alternatively favorite idea that does not rollback any buffs: Swarmer +1 GL, Wyrm +1 air

Dec 10, 2015 01:11

Subject: Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25

Apercent

Messages: 744,
Joined: Sep 08, 2015,
Offline

simsverd wrote:

agree on wyrm. but you got it wrong.. it does not have a +1 air yet.. but it might get

Agree on swarmer and good idea on GH and GL.

And also consider buffing pinzer air +1 (to 3), then it will be a viable unit in K vs K and an more important unit in K vs S

Totally agree with simsverd. And I think marine needs the air attack, sorry guys. Maybe give the helicopter 8 or 9 g.h so it isn't dominated by pinzers

Also I think pixel mush's idea about on giving underlings attacks when unburying is a great idea. No one will escape!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Dec 10, 2015 01:16

Dec 10, 2015 15:39

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25

volf

Messages: 81,
Joined: Jun 03, 2015,
Offline

I dont k ow if this was considered but I think giving the engineer more mobility will improve saps chances against titans.

Dec 13, 2015 16:23

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes applied on 2015-11-25

Sicariphus

Messages: 9,
Joined: Dec 03, 2015,
Offline

A few thoughts I'd like to throw in:

Most of the talk seems to be about addressing balance primarily through changing attack ratings & such. I think it's worth raising the question of whether there are other ways to balance things out besides just balancing the damage the races can inflict.

My personal opinion is that the update made Khraleans weaker against both sapiens and titans. The Khraleans are liable to get blocked in by ground heavy units that they can't adequately damage. They have very limited ability to deal with an established defensive line.

Rather than increase their ability to dish out damage in that situation, I would argue that perhaps that disadvantage could be compensated for by, e.g., increasing the mobility of some units. Increased pinzer mobility would make it easier to counter a strong defensive line by being able to feint more effectively, or capitalize on a weakness. Increasing buried underling mobility would make buried underlings more of a serious threat in an offensive capability than they are now.

Increasing wyrm mobility could also make it harder to definitively attack-proof a defensive position, and make it easier to shift offensive focus by surprise.

Additionally, vision could be adjusted. Because it is currently normal for a lot of the map to be in view, I would actually suggest slightly DECREASING vision of some titan and human units, to make maintaining view of the enemy's movements more of a practical concern, while giving the Khraleans a bit more of an advantage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Dec 13, 2015 16:27

Forum Index » General Discussion
◄ 1 2 3 4 ► Go Go to page...