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About units balance: CHN Zero give some advice
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CHN zero

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CHN zero

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Hello everyone I ‘m CHN zero. As an old player, I want to put forward some of my opinions about this game. Maybe many players knew me , but I rarely came here before. Now, My score is 2675. And I want to do my part to make this game more balance.

Units changes:

Many new units are not balanced, I will tell my feelings to you in the games between the top players.

1.salamanders are too powerful when they meet Sap. They can infected any Sap units when they are attacked, and the plague will be spread like wild-fire! Zerg players can use it beat the Sap players even the Zerg players make some big mistakes. That’s unjustified in a competitive game in my opinion. I think, “salamanders can infected ONLY ONE UNIT when they are attacked” will be reasonable.

2.BOPPERS are uncontrollable for many players. 3-3attack range and 0 defense point let them become controversial units. Many players think BOPPERS are too weak because they often destroyed by enemy easily without any damage to the enemy units. But other players think BOPPERS have 3 attack range,35% AP and they can attack after move. IN MY OPINON, BOPPERS need these changes: GH attack from 5 to 4, attack range become 2-3, defense from 0 to 2.

3.GUARDIANS are too much powerful even their GH attack decreased from 7 to 5 before. Tank Pinzer and plasma as crisp as paper when meet guardians in forest and mountain .Because guardians have 45%AP, GH attack from 5 to 4 will be reasonable.

4.BOFLY: As a 200 credits unit ,they always make 4 or even 5 damages to plasma! That’s terrible! And they are also very powerful in a zerg VS zerg battle. They are cheap, and I think BOFLY need these changes: GH attack from 6 to 4. Ariel AP% from 50% to 35%.

5.MACHES: I think Titans need more attack behavior in a battle with many forests . Not plasma and plasma x N and walkers! This strategy can beat sap easily ,but you will wait for death when you meet Zerg. I think MACHES need this change: movement from 7 to 8.

6.HELICOPERS: Sap players still can’t beat Titans when the map is big. As I said before, plasma xN and walkers always give sap players headache. Sap units are low defense when they Titans. BOPPERS can’t solve this problem because they only have 2+3 or 1+3 Operational radius. And walkers also 5 Operational radius! And you can’t put BOPPERS at the forefront because speeders will destroy them! So I think helicopter NEED THIS CHEANGE to break these phenomenon: GH attack from 7 to 8. this will be reasonable because salamanders ,guarudas,swarmers can deal with helicopters effectively. Titans also have 400 credits air destroyer
Meetch V

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Meetch V

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Ok, I'm going to reply to all your points in order.

1) Yes, I agree, salamander is a tad bit too powerful. However, this doesn't mean that it is overpowered. I would suggest a nerf of defence by 1, and it should be fine as it is.

2) Boppers are fine as they are. Yes, they can move after attack and deal 5-6 damage against a speeder or marauder, but once you attack one of the marauders the bopper becomes hard to defend. Besides, the bopper is very situational, and I would go for a marauder 95% of the time.

3) I believe that guardians actually need a buff, not a nerf. As of right now, guardians are barely used. They can't repair, they don't deal that impressive damage and have quite low range and defence. I think that buffing guardian's defence by 1 would be a nice idea. Keep the damage, that's the guardians main role.

4) Borfly is overpowered, I agree. You mentioned that it does 4-5 damage to a plasma, but you have to realize that the Borfly is used primarily for area control. Your tank shouldn't be getting hit by a borfly often, if not at all. Moving on, the reason borfly is overpowered is that it is basically a swarmer (they trade evenly). This makes K v K matches often have lots of borfly spam. The borfly also deals 3-4 damage against a garuda and has 2-3 range. I think that it's armor penetration values should be decreased, specifically aerial - down to 40%. Otherwise, it fine as it is.

5) Mecha is an amazing unit. If t is on a mountain, it gets the same defence as the helicopter. Besides, you mentioned that Titan strategy is just to get a plasma tank and a walker, but really, the titan's main force is the speeder... That's the unit you should be spamming along with the mecha. The mecha doesn't need a buff. The slow speed is supposed to be the main drawback of the titans. The mecha makes up for its speed with armour and extra damage against aerial. Besides, the mecha has the teleport ability, which is extremely useful.

6) I agree that it can be hard for Sap to win vs Titans in a long range map, but I think helicopter is good enough as it is. The helicopter is supposed to be an amazing anti-light ground unit, it is not supposed to fight tanks. However, I still believe that something should be done to prevent titans from simply building up on long range maps.

Thanks.
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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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Zero -

Thank you for your insights. I really appreciate you taking the time to post your thoughts on current balance here. I'm sure Wormdog and Sims will appreciate the feedback to aide in the ongoing balance discussion.

Pento

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Pento

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Chnzero I totally agree on every single point!!
Everything you picked out bothers me and made me stop playing ranked games.

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simsverd

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simsverd

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Thank you zero!

As i have said earlier... opinions among the top players differ a lot. The balance deciding group does not see the same problems as you do.. We think the balance between the races overall is pretty good and mostly smaller adjustmenst are needed.. for example to make some of the underused units more usable.. without making balance worse.

1. I dont think salamander is OP. The changes made to it recently was absolute needed to give khral a chance vs sap. On certain maps salamander is to good.. but the same can be said for marauder, speeder, swarmer, etc etc.
2. I think the bopper is fine as it is, but your suggestions are interesting (changes to make it more usable)
3. Guardian is very powerful vs tanks, but imo - players find the paradigm-shift where tanks are "2 shotted" hard to accept. If you look at mid-high level play - you will rarely see mass guardian play.. because they have so low survivability. Personally i only make as many as absolutely needed to take down the tanks on the board..
4. Borfly is probably OP.. at least for its cost. We might reduce the GH. We will not reduce air.. they need to be usable in k vs k and be able to dammage the helicopter.
5. Mecka move from 7 to 8 is an interesting idea... im not sure if its wanted for "design" reasons (its wanted to keep the unit/race uniqeness) - but definately an idea to consider.
6. Disagree on this idea. Many plasma-tanks are not the current meta (unless insane ammount of credits - wich is a rare situation).

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Pento

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Pento

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6.) Heli lost a lot of it's value with the new units. I hardly use it anymore.
It's too cost extensive for benefit. With the Borfly and guardian there are two new anti air units. So it's kind of insane to send Heli to an infight when the feedback is a distant strike the Helicopter can't answer. For 500c i expect some more advantage. As well it is hard for Heli to recover.

Eclipse is obsolete as well because the new units can do the same job nearly as good for less credits and on top they serve well on other units.
.

I have the feeling you spend a lot effort to reduce the advantages of sapien race. Now Sapiens game focuses a lot on three units. It's Marauder, infantry and bopper, sometimes tank. The rest got very occasional.

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simsverd

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simsverd

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  Pento wrote:6.) Heli lost a lot of it's value with the new units. I hardly use it anymore.
It's too cost extensive for benefit. With the Borfly and guardian there are two new anti air units. So it's kind of insane to send Heli to an infight when the feedback is a distant strike the Helicopter can't answer. For 500c i expect some more advantage. As well it is hard for Heli to recover.

Eclipse is obsolete as well because the new units can do the same job nearly as good for less credits and on top they serve well on other units.

I have the feeling you spend a lot effort to reduce the advantages of sapien race. Now Sapiens game focuses a lot on three units. It's Marauder, infantry and bopper, sometimes tank. The rest got very occasional.

Disagree on the heli. I think its still very usable. Have not heard many other high level complain about that.
Eclipse is not obsolte.. but the usability is not where it should be.. we will probably give it heal2 to increase its usefullness.

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Pento

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Pento

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Yes, still usable.
But not anyhow like before. And with 500c it's one of the expensive units andit "lost" a lot of it's durability.
Why don't you consider healing +2 as well or higher defense or 50c less.
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The Impaler

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The Impaler

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Haha, I was going to post an opinion, but then read what Simsverd wrote. I agree with all of his opinions. I am a little less comfortable with the salamander as he is, but I agree, its map dependant. They are just another excellent unit similar to marauders. I do however think their defense might be too high, they have the defense of a tank in a swamp.

TL;DR: I agree with sims 100%, but perhaps -1 defense to salamander? Maybe that would nerf it too hard though.


PS - glad to have you on the balancing team Sims.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jul 06, 2017 17:46


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Walter Sobchak

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Walter Sobchak

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I'd like to see the guardian get a bit of a buff as well. It's a unit I'd like to use more but don't because it's just too vulnerable. The eclipse also isn't as good now that the borfly and bopper can outrange it.

Overall I like the new units though really changes the game play and makes things more interesting!
The Impaler

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The Impaler

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  Walter Sobchak wrote:I'd like to see the guardian get a bit of a buff as well. It's a unit I'd like to use more but don't because it's just too vulnerable.


Thats the idea. all units are supposed to be a cost-benefit trade-off. its the most powerful tank buster and also the most risky. it is still a very useful unit.

i beleive they are considering heal +2 for eclipse

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