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Helo nerf - how do you guys feel about it?
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IzzyNobre

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IzzyNobre

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I know, I know. I'll be the target of much hate, but we all know this needs to be addressed. Now lemme get this out right now - I'm a Sapiens player myself. Ok? Ok.

As it stands, the Sapiens are arguably the best race in the game. Thet have it all: mobility (Helo/Marauders), the most useful support unit (Engineers can EMP and reprogram)... and I'm sure I'm not the only player who's been more than a little annoyed by a opponent who does nothing but spam helos to no end. Yes, I'm looking at you, diegomclima

(Don't get this wrong, diego is a buddy of mine)

Here's the problem - even with the recent nerf, the Helo is still probably the best unit in the game, pound for pound. It's got ridiculous attack numbers, FoW that allows it to see pretty much the entirety of too many maps, it can move after the strike, making a counter-attack a little harder, and squatting over bases previously ocupied by enemy forces a little easier.

Combine that with the fact that too many units are WORTHLESS in air combat, and we reach the obvious conclusion that when you're playing Saps, the best strategy is to spam helos until the opponent is overrun by them. And as a Sapiens player, I realized that it takes the inter-unit strategy and battlefield planning right out of the game, reducing UniWar from an intricate chess-like war game to checkers. Why bother studying terrain effects, range of movement, unit combos and different attack stats when I can just pump out the same unit over and over again? I move, I take a few of his choppers. He moves, he takes a few of mine. Rinse, repeat.

So, what do you guys think? I believe I have a valid point, but there's always the possibility that I just suck. How do you guys deal with Helos?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jul 20, 2009 15:31

diegomclima

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diegomclima

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Oh well... I am the one he is looking at.

I've been winning most games thanks to the helo spam. Nothing more natural for me to be against the nerf, right? Wrong.

I am getting really tired of using the same strategy in almost EVERY SINGLE map. My suggestions here are:

1) More expensive Helo ($600 maybe)
2) Lower attack
3) No more Move after Attack

Implementing just one of these should make the game much more playable. Maybe, to balance the Sapiens race, we could just make other unit better. For example, allowing the tank to attack air units.

Any other suggestion?
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IzzyNobre

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IzzyNobre

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Considering their mobility, the attack stats are a little on the high side. Either lower the mobility (which doesn't make a whole lot of practical sense, considering they are flying...), or reduce their attack a bit. Seriously, Helos can take on pretty much ANY unit in the game with ease, on top of having high attack stats, high mobility and a high FoW! It's just a little too much for only $500. It's only $100 more expensive than the tank, and arguably better in almost every stat.

It isn't fair to Khraleans and Titans players, and it makes us Sapiens players lazily resort to Helo spam too often.

Any other ideas?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jul 20, 2009 15:49

lion37

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lion37

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Guys - I think you are 100% right.
And these issues have already been discussed in many other threads and posts in these forums.

Just making the Heli cost more will not solve the problem since it will just take a little longer to spam them.
Both the Heli and the Engineer need to be nerfed. The Battery should be made stronger and the sap Tank should get anti-air attack in order to compensate the Sap players.

I no longer allow Sap players in my games since it is painfully obvious that they will just spam Heli's and Engineers.
There is nothing interesting or sophisticated about spamming these units - it just ruins the game.

If I was not so lazy I would upload some screen shots from my exisiting games. What you would see is lots and lots and lots of Helis.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jul 20, 2009 15:47

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IzzyNobre

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IzzyNobre

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  lion37 wrote: Guys - I think you are 100% right.
And these issues have already been discussed in many other threads and posts in these forums.

Just making the Heli cost more will not solve the problem since it will just take a little longer to spam them.
Both the Heli and the Engineer need to be nerfed. The Battery should be made stronger and the sap Tank should get anti-air attack in order to compensate the Sap players.

I no longer allow Sap players in my games since it is painfully obvious that they will just spam Heli's and Engineers.
There is nothing interesting or sophisticated about spamming these units - it just ruins the game.

If I was not so lazy I would upload some screen shots from my exisiting games. What you would see is lots and lots and lots of Helis.


While I agree the Engineer is by and large better than the other support units (better than the Assimilator, anyway. The Infector at least can capture bases, which is handy), it's low defense and high cool-off period in between using the EMP makes it a far more balanced unit than the Helo.

To visibly see how unbalaced the Helicopter is, open up both stat sheets, side by side, and compare the values.

http://www.uniwar.com/unit.page?unitId=106

http://www.uniwar.com/unit.page?unitId=108

The Helo has comparable attack AND defense stats, but ridiculously higher mobility and air combat worthyness for just $100 more! Why even bother with a slower unit that is helpless against aerial assaults...?

Every time I see a player using Tanks, I can't help but automatically assume they're beginners. And I just suddenly realized why I thought that - because for $100 more, you get a far better unit that outperforms the Tank in just about every way.
dragoon

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dragoon

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Tanks are more useful than you think. They're very strong defensively especially when backed by engineers.

But that's not here or there. I do think helicopters should be changed. Helicopters should be glass cannons. Lots of fire power and can hit and run but extremely vulnerable to enemy fire. I'd consider letting them fire from one space away like a swarmer or eclipse (after all helicopters use guns, they don't bash into their opponents)

Either way I think they're fine offensively but in real life a helicopter is a very fragile thing. I know these are more advanced but still.
diegomclima

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diegomclima

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Have the devs already pronounced anyting about this? I mean, is there a intention to nerf the Helos again?

Maybe this option of making the Helo attack 2 squares away but have really low defense will work nice, since the other races have units with this ability.
Anonymous

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heli defense is too strong. 2 garudas can't kill a heli, so i need 2 garudas + 1 swarmer since an underling can't attack aerials. that costs 950 to kill a 500. yet 1 heli and 1 soldier can kill a garuda, or 600 to kill a 350 in a single round. and since it's far easier to reach 600 than 950 on most maps, sapiens will have an advantage.

eclipses do well against helis, but they lack the mobility, and titans always have to fear the engineer spam.
Hachiman

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Hachiman

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heli defense is too strong. 2 garudas can't kill a heli, so i need 2 garudas + 1 swarmer since an underling can't attack aerials.


Hold on a second. I agrree in general, but can we can we hold off with the over stating the case? 2 Garuda murder a Heli, just not in one turn.

Helicopters should be glass cannons


Yes, lots of people agree wth this. Heli's should be a powerful weapon, but a more fragile one. Lowering their defense is the right answer (lots of units still won't be able to hit them anyway). At the moment they are just better than everything else (except EMP spam vs Titans), and its just boring. It lets down an otherwise great game.

On the other hand, I don't think the Battery needs any help. i'm seeing it more and more in games. Screened by Heli's they are pretty powerful vs Khral's

Giving the tank some anti air capability however, would give Sap players further reason NOT to spam Heli's. Which can only be a good thing. Maybe even up their normal attack, if nerfing Heli's weakens Saps too much.

the best strategy is to spam helos until the opponent is overrun by them. And as a Sapiens player, I realized that it takes the inter-unit strategy and battlefield planning right out of the game, reducing UniWar from an intricate chess-like war game to checkers. Why bother studying terrain effects, range of movement, unit combos and different attack stats when I can just pump out the same unit over and over again? I move, I take a few of his choppers. He moves, he takes a few of mine. Rinse, repeat.


Well said. the problem isn't even the imbalance so much as the boring play it ensures...
Unimarobj

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Unimarobj

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I don't think that the helicopter should be weakened again unless the tanks get anti-air capabilities, or the helicopter can attack two spaces away. The helicopter can be spammed, but if someone knows what they are doing they can take them out without an issue. And yeah, Khraleans can win an air-fight, just not instantly, that's a growing process.
I would love to see the battery improved...but I've realized how awesome it can be against enemy-air units =]
GameShaman

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GameShaman

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(Warning, I am simply comparing the helicopter vs. garuda). Just started playing a little over a week ago, but from what I've seen, the mobility of the helicopter is one of the key things that allows it to compete with garudas. If you are going to reduce it's mobility (before or after), I would argue that the cost should also be reduced (450 or 400). Otherwise the cheaper garudas will tear them up almost every time. So far I have won almost all of my garuda vs. helicopter battles (playing both sides a comparable number of times) and feel they are closely matched in this respect. Nerfing the helicopter further, without decreasing it's price would make these battles lop sided.

Reducing the helicopters stats (if significant) would make this battle lop sided as well. It would make it more difficult to kill a single garuda, allowing it to retreat and heal at 6hp/round, while the helicopter can only heal at 2hp/round. Even so, being able to trade 1 garuda per helicopter is a losing battle for the sapiens. I can often accomplish this with khraleans right now.

How much more effective is a helicopter over a garuda? Let's look at it's stats:

Helicopter
======== =======
Cost: 500
Mobility: 12
Ground Light: 12
Ground Heavy: 7
Ariel: 9
Aquatic: 8
Defense: 11
Repair: 1
Repair w/Healer: 2
Vision: 6

Garuda
===============
Cost: 350
Mobility: 12
Ground Light: 7
Ground Heavy: 7
Ariel: 9
Aquatic: 8
Defense: 8
Repair: 2
Repair w/Healer: 6
Vision: 6

Difference:
============ ===
Cost: Helicopter 43% more than Garuda
Mobility: Equal
Ground Light: Helicopter 71% more than Garuda
Ground Heavy: Equal
Ariel: Equal
Aquatic: Equal
Defense: Helicopter 38% more than Garuda
Repair: Garuda 100% more than Helicopter
Repair w/Healer: Garuda 200% more than Helicopter
Vision: Equal

The helicopter costs 43% more than a Garuda, but only one of it's stats more effective than this % (Ground Light attack). Most stats are equal. The Garudas healing blows away the Helicopters healing. So you're paying 43% more for a Helicopter, are you getting 43% more value? The obvious answer only looking at the stats above is an obvious no. I would take the 350 Garuda over the 500 Helicopter every time. You would probably have to go down to 400 before I'd have to think about it. Now, add in the ability to move after attacking and the 500 price tag seems reasonable. IMO you're paying an extra 100 credits for that ability.
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GameShaman

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GameShaman

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So taking all of that into account, if you were to simply increase the cost of a helicopter by 100, they should get destroyed by Garudas almost every time.

I think the biggest imbalance is the other races lack of anti air ability. The sapiens marine is a decent defense against garudas air, while the underling simply takes up space. Rather than further nerfing the helicopter, I would look at slightly beefing up the anti air of the other races.

Just $.02 from a newb who has only played a handful of maps and less than 30 games.

~Jeff
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diegomclima

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diegomclima

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I think that just buff the other races anti-air won't be enough.

You see... you can spam 1 Heli every round in almost every map, this with the hit and run ability and high defense you will be with lots of Helis in such a small time. This is enough to unbalance everything else.

I think that lowering the defense considerably will solve the problem. Come on Devs, make this fair. Words of a Sapiens player
GameShaman

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GameShaman

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If you lower the Helicopter defense down to a Garuda's level, I would argue it isn't much more valuable than a Garuda and it's cost should reflect that.
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diegomclima

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diegomclima

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  GameShaman wrote: If you lower the Helicopter defense down to a Garuda's level, I would argue it isn't much more valuable than a Garuda and it's cost should reflect that.


The Heli has Hit and Run, and if you know how to use it, you can keep you heli safe AND stay on top of enemy bases.
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