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Submersible units not properly benefitting from gangup
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FuzzyEukaryote

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FuzzyEukaryote

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I've tried multiple times to make sure it isn't a quirk of the random number generator. After attacking a submerged skimmer with a submarine, the next attack does usually do more damage, but the different attack directions don't give the +1,2,3 they are supposed to. It seems like everything is +2 except the close ranged +3 spot still might work. The long range +3 doesn't work and there is no +1 from what I can tell.

I'm not certain if my guessed bonuses are correct, but I know they aren't the normal bonuses.
FuzzyEukaryote

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FuzzyEukaryote

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After more testing, I can confirm that an attack from a submerged unit only gives a +1 bonus no matter what distance it attacks from.

So while this isn't how things have been before, but it makes sense in a way, since they're on a different plane, they always count as a ranged attack.

However, one problem I have with this, intentional or not, is that when both units are submerged, you should be able to get normal gangup: especially with the kraken (my testing has been limited to the submarine so far).
FuzzyEukaryote

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FuzzyEukaryote

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Some other oddities:

* Submarines are immune to plague.
* Submersible and amphibious units cannot be attacked by a submerged kraken or skimmer while they are on the bridge tile.
* Submerged units cannot move on coral, maybe intended?
* The attack range for submerged units is technically wrong. It's listed as 1-2, but it's actually 0-2. They can attack from underneath another unit. (Future unit idea if this game keeps getting more complicated: stealth units that can sneak and stay in the shadows. They can occupy the same tile as an enemy unit and only have attack range 0 while stealth.)
* Submerged kraken is tiny. It looks puny and weak. Can you increase its size by ~20%? I think that would look better.

Right now submersible units seem a bit un-counterable. They should always stay submerged and only other submerged units can hurt them. This leads to one side achieving underwater dominance and then the other team cannot use the water and that team can surface some of the units to be artillery, or for Khraleans, just bonk anyone on the shore line.

What I see is this:
* If SvT, skimmers just rip the submarines to shreds. Then skimmers can bombard.
* If TvK: krakens destroy skimmers and then Khraleans build leviathans and borfly to capitalize on the naval supremacy.
* If KvS, same as above, basically.
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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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It sounds like we need a depth charge ability.

It might make sense to make it so these units can't attack land units, whether they're on the surface or submerged. That way over investing in them would lead to investment that kinda stops being useful.

I know some RTS treat subs this way. Can't think of a TBS that does, but I think from a balance perspective that could help.
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But really... depth charges. The bigger ships should have them. And I think from a water war being fun and challenging perspective it should probably be:

Subs counter amphibians
Amphibians counter destroyer
Destroyer counters subs (takes little damage, can hurt subs)

Amphibians and destroyers already play a HUGE role in inland fighting. If anything, this could be amplified but subs don't need to be taking this role from destroyers..

----

Lastly, after giving destroyer class units a depth charge ability or attack... also consider letting their "arcing fire" hit a submerged Sub. (So long as the sub is spotted by an adjacent friendly unit.)

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Last option: limit the number of turns a sub can stay underwater.

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i think the goal of having 3 naval units was to create a situation where the players would need to decide what mix would be effective, and respond to counters.

Now in your post you're saying the current answer is: build more sub (class unit)... that's a problem. I doubt it's a stat balance issue since like you said: submerged they can only be hit by subs.

So I think need to look at a way to counter them with another unit type...

Batteries

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Batteries

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  Duaneski wrote:So I think need to look at a way to counter them with another unit type...


I'm going to build off this and say an EXISTING unit type. I don't want another new unit that is only used for countering subs.

I like copeab's idea of allowing artillery to hit subs. It increases their usefulness and gives them another reason to be used in this cheap-unit meta we're building.
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wookieontheweb

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wookieontheweb

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I agree that subs seem too powerful at the moment (just my first impressions, I've not used them enough). For their price they seem to replace the need to build ships (similar to how tank busters are used in preference to ranged units in many cases).

Of all the ideas listed by Duaneski, I like the idea that they cannot attack land units, or better they can only attack land units at range 1. Compensate that with a little more attack against aquatic/amphibious.

I really like the idea of ships having depth charge. I don't think subs should be able to be hit by shells when submerged though. Depth charge, range 1 (not 0), could be nice if the damage is related to the time the sub has been submerged. If it was higher damage the longer the sub was under then it would force the subs to surface more often .. to refresh. Though this feels slightly counter intuitive to me as it feels the longer you are under the deeper you are so the less damage you should take, but that kind of defeats the depth charge some what.

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StarryBlink

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StarryBlink

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Since now we have exactly 3 naval units, it's good to balance then in a rock-scissor-paper pattern.

I agree with the previous post that amphibians should beat battleships, submarines beat amphibians and battleships beat submarines.

Then all types of naval units will never be overpowered.

If submarines are so powerful that one player build a massive army of them,
another player will start building battleships to counter.
And the auto-regulated mechanism always go on.

I think it’s also good to add artilleries an ability to shoot at submarines to improve they’re being underpowered.
But artilleries shouldn’t be counted as the main force to deal with submarines.

Because artilleries and submarines are in the different plain.
There will be situations when enemy’s submarines are offending you,
but you can’t send any artillery to check them.

Using other naval units to counter submarines is better since they are on the same plain.
Then you should almost always able to bring other naval units to deal with submarines
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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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I mean. I don't mean to pigeonhole us into one solution.

For example:

Destroyer could be an excellent counter to subs. Maybe depth charge does AOE high damage to subs nearby.

Meanwhile let's say the mantisse is actually the Titan counter to subs. Maybe he can attack them while they're submerged at like -25% attack power or something :p, or maybe they have some sort of activated ability with a turn Cooldown that harms subs.

For khral maybe they rely on the kraken to control the underwater realm...


(It is probably simplest to go Rock Paper Scissors by boat class though :p )

Another thought: is amphibians countering subs a better idea than destroyers doing it?

This way, if you lose the high seas, you may have a hope of taking the seas back. Plus, submarines historically, I think, are more effective versus a battleship.

*what would be required is to make battleships more cost effective against the amphibians. (Which should be VERY easy by adjusting their naval AP value to 0% and maybe reducing their attack.
FuzzyEukaryote

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FuzzyEukaryote

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I like all the discussion.

To flesh out one of Duaneski's ideas: Having a submersed time limit and a corresponding cooldown would allow some neat mechanics between the races:

Maybe the kraken, since it's a creature adapted to the seas, can move and dive/resurface, but only stay under a short time (maybe 2 turns?) And has a short cooldown.

The skimmer looks like a shark, so maybe it can have a move and resurface (but not move and dive) and is able to stay under for 3-4 turns and gets a resurface attack bonus (at range 1 only) like the underling.

The submarine is made for bombardment, so maybe it has a long time it can stay under to bombard (~5 turns), but must be stationary to dive or resurface. When it resurfaces, it would have a long cooldown before diving again.

Perhaps cooldown for all units could raise the time they spent under water.

And like Duaneski said, if this is used, it doesn't need to be the only solution.
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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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  FuzzyEukaryote wrote:I like all the discussion.

To flesh out one of Duaneski's ideas: Having a submersed time limit and a corresponding cooldown would allow some neat mechanics between the races:

Maybe the kraken, since it's a creature adapted to the seas, can move and dive/resurface, but only stay under a short time (maybe 2 turns?) And has a short cooldown.

The skimmer looks like a shark, so maybe it can have a move and resurface (but not move and dive) and is able to stay under for 3-4 turns and gets a resurface attack bonus (at range 1 only) like the underling.

The submarine is made for bombardment, so maybe it has a long time it can stay under to bombard (~5 turns), but must be stationary to dive or resurface. When it resurfaces, it would have a long cooldown before diving again.

Perhaps cooldown for all units could raise the time they spent under water.

And like Duaneski said, if this is used, it doesn't need to be the only solution.


Omg i love it!
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