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Gang Up Bonus explanation needed.
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karmiga

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karmiga

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I thought I understood Gang up bonus, however I feel there is something I'm missing. Basically hitting range as a first hit, followed by a hit at point 1 would give a +1 attack, if you hit next to where you hit last it's +1 attack, if you hit 2 spaces away it's a +2 attack, and if you hit opposite side it's a +3 attack. If, however, you continue to hit the same space, you do not get bonuses to attack. (I'll put the official wording below.)

So I'm playing Titan vs Titan battle. My target is a Speeder (8 hp). I did many variations on this attack and it puzzled me because it was never different. I tried various orders and troops, however these two stick out because they are exact opposite attacks but the result is effectively backwards

1) Gangup all-the-way: My Speeder 10 hits at point 2 for 3-damage, a second Speeder hits at point 5 for 3-damage, and a Mecha 10 hits at point 4 for 2-damage. Total damage = 8 to him, 5 to me. (top row of picture)
2) Attack same point: My Speeder 10 hits at point 4 for 3-damage, a second Speeder hits at point 4 for 3-damage, and a Mecha 10 hits at point 4 for 3-damage. Total damage = 9 to him, 5 to me. (bottom row of picture)

As I said, I tried to switch this up and the strongest attack was always when all three hit the same place. Each attack was done by a stronger unit, and the Gang up Bonus appears to do nothing. I even did an attack killing my Guardian on the mountain as an initial hit and the points didn't change. I noticed this on some other battles too, that a straight attack will produce better damage. Can someone please explain to me what I'm missing here? Why does the gang up-style attack deal less damage?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0ewn5c1L5EOS1UxdFVIbThJZms

* Gang Up Bonus: Attack the same enemy twice or more during the same turn to gain an attack bonus. This gang up bonus varies depending on the location of the first attacking unit and the following attacking units. To gain a +1 bonus, have an attacker next to the first attacker or have one of your attackers fight long range. For a +2 bonus, have the second attacker further around the enemy unit. To gain a +3 bonus, have the next attacker behind the enemy unit on the opposite side of the first attacker.
Redfog

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Redfog

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Hitting the same space will give a gangup bonus of +2 same as if you would attack 2 tiles further around the target.
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LkASr

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LkASr

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go to this page, it should give you all you need in gangup mechanics

http://forum.uniwar.com/posts/list/1250.page

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karmiga

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karmiga

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  LkASr wrote:go to this page, it should give you all you need in gangup mechanics

http://forum.uniwar.com/posts/list/1250.page


Yes, I have seen that and reviewed it which is why I'm either confused or missing something. In my example, I should have been gaining more attack by not hitting the same spot repeatedly as this only gives +1. Instead I should have been gaining the +2 and +3 for hitting around the target, therefore gaining a higher attack. As shown in my example though, and I replicated it again this morning, repeatedly hitting the same spot will give more damage then hitting around the target. This morning, hitting the same spot with two speeders, both 10, offered 3-damage then 4-damage. By hitting opposite sides (+3 bonus), it offered 3-damage and 3-damage.

So what is the point of the +2 and +3 attack bonus if not to deal more damage? If the bonus is cumulative, 3 units hitting the same spot will offer a +2 attack bonus (1st hit, +1, +1), while the other attack in the example would have a +5 attack bonus (1st hit, +3, +2).

  Redfog wrote:Hitting the same space will give a gangup bonus of +2 same as if you would attack 2 tiles further around the target.


Where are you getting this information from? From what I've seen, the 2nd attack on the same space will offer a +1 attack bonus. If they are cumulative, then the 3rd attack will offer a +2 on the same space. Check the link above.
Redfog

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Redfog

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First: gangup is not cumulative but only counts for the next attack.
Second: I cannot recall where I have this information from but I've seen it and, more importantly, it seems to work exactly like that in the game.

Edit: Chato Hill isn't even difficult against bugs as you can leave your sim in the forest and the underlings will simply run into it without even killing it. btw plasmas work great on that map to, you can build them all day long

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Sep 05, 2017 13:34

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karmiga

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karmiga

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  Redfog wrote:First: gangup is not cumulative but only counts for the next attack.
Second: I cannot recall where I have this information from but I've seen it and, more importantly, it seems to work exactly like that in the game.


I agree, it does appear to be that way in the game, which is why I'm confused that the larger attack bonuses are doing less damage that the small attack bonuses. Further to your point, hitting the same spot seems to be a high bonus than attacking beside that spot next to where you hit last. So if the gameplay doesn't match the intended design, would this be a glitch?
Redfog

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Redfog

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  karmiga wrote:
  Redfog wrote:First: gangup is not cumulative but only counts for the next attack.
Second: I cannot recall where I have this information from but I've seen it and, more importantly, it seems to work exactly like that in the game.


I agree, it does appear to be that way in the game, which is why I'm confused that the larger attack bonuses are doing less damage that the small attack bonuses. Further to your point, hitting the same spot seems to be a high bonus than attacking beside that spot next to where you hit last. So if the gameplay doesn't match the intended design, would this be a glitch?


I actually think that it is designed that way. Think about it. Take a Tank vs Tank combat for instance. Assume the defending tank turns to the direction where it has been attacked from. So the heaviest armour would be in the front. The back and the side would be very weak which would give the attacker a bonus if attacking from there. So what about the front? Well, I guess you might say that after the first attack from the front the tank has been weakened, maybe taken a couple of hits that left some weak spots in the armour plating. As for long range attacks the behaviour would be similar. And I guess if a tank got hit by an artillery unit that it would be hindered in its maneuverability as well if you think that there would normally be several artillery shells hitting the ground, leaving craters of destruction. But I'm starting to ramble.. I hope that makes sense
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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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Karmiga-

I don't think what you're describing is an effect of the gangup bonus.

I think what you're looking for is here:
http://forum.uniwar.com/posts/list/2349.page
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karmiga

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karmiga

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  Duaneski wrote:Karmiga-

I don't think what you're describing is an effect of the gangup bonus.

I think what you're looking for is here:
http://forum.uniwar.com/posts/list/2349.page


This much I understood, and usually try to find the best possible order for my attacks to maximize my damage or to get the right unit hitting at the right time to destroy the defender. If you have not seen the image, please click the link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0ewn5c1L5EOS1UxdFVIbThJZms Top row vs bottom row.

What happens in my examples, if you notice it's the same units hitting in the same order against the same target, is that the side of the hit is the variable that appears to be causing the change in outcome. I have done it with a marauder too! It's first hit in position #1 will do 4 damage. The second hit will do either 4 damage if I hit position #1 a second time, or 3 damage if I hit any of the four reachable sides (2, 3, 5, or 6).
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Angkor

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Angkor

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I'm a bit confused because everything on your picture is perfectly fine.
1st line: 1 - speeder with 0 bonus from gangup. 2 - speeder with 3 bonus from gangup. 3 - mecha with 1 bonus from gang-up.
2nd line: 1 - speeder with 0 bonus. 2 - speeder with 2 bonus. 3 - mecha with 2 bonus.

/edit: maybe you think as I did for some time - that it's the position of the first attack that matters in the next attack. It's wrong - actually it's the previous attack that counts, so for example mecha as 3rd attack with bonus referred to the 2nd speeder.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Sep 07, 2017 17:43

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Michaelrn

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Michaelrn

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Karmiga,

There is nothing wrong in the pictures.

Attacking from same spot doesn’t give+1, it gives +2.

As Angkor pointed, gang up is determined only by positioning of previous attacker (not the first one) relative to the current attacker. That may be the cause of your confusion.

In your example, in the second row the speeder with +3 hit the same of a speeder with +2, that's just a matter of luck. In the third row, the mechs from second line has +2 gang up and causes more damage than the Mecha from first line that has only +1 gangup, again a matter of luck.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Sep 08, 2017 03:43

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karmiga

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karmiga

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Ok, so perhaps I'm not the only one confused because it seems there is conflicting info our there. Let me explain again.

In my picture, I'm red and attacking blue. The top three pictures we'll call 1-1, 1-2, 1-3. These are one possible attack, we will call this attack #1.
The bottom three pictures we'll call 2-1, 2-2, 2-3, and this series will be called attack #2.
In this example, I am attacking with the same units, and hitting the same blue Speeder in both attack #1 and attack #2.
In picture 1-1 and 1-2 it is the same 10-hp speeder hitting, in 1-2 and 2-2, it is the same 6-hp speeder, in 1-3 and 2-3 it is the same mecha. Each of these are hitting the same blue speeder.
The link provided to explain Gangup bonus shows that hits from the same place are +1 (yellow), so why do people say that they are +2 (orange)? Can someone prove this?
Gangup Bonus Explained: http://forum.uniwar.com/posts/list/1250.page
Attack #1 my red 10 speeder hits position 2, then my 6 speeder hits position 5 which is an opposite side attack and should get a +3 bonus for gangup.
Attack #2 my red 10 speeder hits position 4, then my 6 speeder hits position 4 which is same position attack so per the guide it should get +1 bonus.
These two attacks deal the same damage.
I did a turn undo to replicate the same attack so both these attacks will have the same background series of numbers for the attacks. Since it's the same units in the same order, no change there.
Further to Ganup Bonus, in attack #1 the second hit is opposite the first hit so a +3 bonus would apply (red). With attack #2, both hits were on the same position, so it would be a +1 attack (yellow), yet they are the same amount.
The third hit is by the Mecha on each of these attacks. In attack #2, which is the third hit to the same location, it will deal 3 damage instead of the 2 damage on attack #1.
I redid this turn multiple times and obtained the same results each time so I know these numbers can be reproduced.
For those of you who say hitting the same place twice is +2 and not +1, then in attack #2 the second hit by the speeder should have had +2 but it still hits the same as attack #1
If hitting the same place is +2 and deals more damage, then why does hitting the opposite side for +3 NOT deal more damage?
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Angkor

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Angkor

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I love how you created a separate thread and checked and checked again for an answer, and after all this time, after all these questions, theories.
Here.
Big reveal.
Your picture was bad, that's all.
http://i62.tinypic.com/55sco6.jpg
(that one's more accurate, with the exception I think all attacks from distance 4-5 are max. +1, but may be wrong. Doesn't really matter...)
Eikonoklastes

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Eikonoklastes

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You might want to take a closer look at the actual gang up bonus thread. The initial map is not accurate and if you dig into it, you'll find further revisions. I think the map on Willingham's damage calculator is accurate, so you might want to check it out. http://uniwar.willingham.net
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Michaelrn

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Michaelrn

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  karmiga wrote:Ok, so perhaps I'm not the only one confused because it seems there is conflicting info our there. Let me explain again.

In my picture, I'm red and attacking blue. The top three pictures we'll call 1-1, 1-2, 1-3. These are one possible attack, we will call this attack #1.
The bottom three pictures we'll call 2-1, 2-2, 2-3, and this series will be called attack #2.
In this example, I am attacking with the same units, and hitting the same blue Speeder in both attack #1 and attack #2.
In picture 1-1 and 1-2 it is the same 10-hp speeder hitting, in 1-2 and 2-2, it is the same 6-hp speeder, in 1-3 and 2-3 it is the same mecha. Each of these are hitting the same blue speeder.
The link provided to explain Gangup bonus shows that hits from the same place are +1 (yellow), so why do people say that they are +2 (orange)? Can someone prove this?
Gangup Bonus Explained: http://forum.uniwar.com/posts/list/1250.page...


You ask for proof that hitting from same spot gives +2 and not +1... well, what better proof than what is indeed happening in the game? If you get more damage attacking from same spot than attcking from an adjacent spot (+1 gangup), then this is proof enough that same spot gives more than +1. Now do several tests hitting from same spot and hitting from any other +2 spot (using the same units in same order) and see if the damage will change or not. Also, in the link you use to sustain your argument of +1 gang up from same spot, there is a later information when they conclude that attacking from same spot gives +2 gangup.

About your question of why an attack with +3 gang up caused the same damage of an attack with a lower bonus, greater gangup bonus doesn’t mean greater damage, it will just increase your CHANCE to cause more damage.
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