Buried underlings op

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Mar 16, 2018 05:16

Subject: Buried underlings op

Capitan sangre

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After latest game changes I feel the underling, swarmer and wyrm combo is really strong against sapiens. I have encounter this combo in more than one occasion and had a very hard time dealing with it.
Any sugestions?

Mar 16, 2018 17:43

Subject: Re:Buried underlings op

Duaneski

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I think SvT is very challenging currently.

But, if we are being honest here - and I sure try to be :p

I believe a big part of this is on the map makers and the players voting on maps.

I see A LOT of VERY congested maps. Mountains, forests, dunes and swamps EVERYWHERE. like people are frickin allergic to a plains tile.

But plains tiles are very important to Sapiens and titans. I think with a more wide open map, where you can use sapien mobility as intended, you'll find more success.

That's just my opinion, of course. Take it for what you will

Mar 17, 2018 09:04

Subject: Re:Buried underlings op

Capitan sangre

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Yea you bring a good point. Map layout plays an important role in game balance. But I still feel that with the new updates and units kralengs have got a really good combination of attacks that can prevent Sapiens agresión without much to lose while giving them the chance to counter in a really strong way. For example for only 200 minerals they can bring chaos to sapiens armies with plague then snipe retreating army with buried underlings that were left there at the beginning of the game. So I feel that two potential solutions to the problem that will not be affected by map layouts.
One: Buried underlings lose 1 life point for every turn they remaind buried. That means that for every turn they move while buried they will lose one life point. This will prevent players abusing map layouta and size. What I see often in big or congested maps is players make bunch of underlings earlier and then slowly move them down the map.
Two: Give sapiens an avility to either attack or unburied underlings. maybe give this ability to the engineer in this way players would be more cautious when sending buried underlings to the back of enemy defenses.
I think that either of this options will make the K vs S match more interesting and challenging for both races. Not more easy wins by getting lucky snipes by a bunch of buried underlings.
This are my thoughts what you guys think?

Mar 22, 2018 20:04

Subject: Re:Buried underlings op

Pero

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Wide (2+ hexes) corridors of plains give too much mobility to marauders and speeders. I once had misfortune to play a map where there was 3 tiles wide corridor and bases were 5 plains apart allowing titan to reach my base by turn 2 and pound my underlings. I tend to prefer maps with non-plain terrain so that speedsters have a bit of delay and infantry a fighting chance. Overly railroaded corridors are bad and too many roads is bad too since they diminish combat effectiveness of vehicles and inflate utility of flyers. So yeah, sprinkle of dunes and trees is good to spice up plains and mountains.

On topic, buried underlings are slow and can be neutralized by equally cheap standing above them. You do have infantry support? They also can't attack air and don't fare well against tanks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Mar 22, 2018 20:04

Mar 29, 2018 10:48

Subject: Re:Buried underlings op

Capitan sangre

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Miss guess is that you did not play against a mass buried underling with range combo and plague before. Stepping on them just buy more time for more underlings to be made. The fact that they have the extra damage when they resurface makes your infantry units too weak as a protection against it. Air units are not cost effective and can be easily snipe by wyrms and swamers. The latest patch that gave wyrms avility to move before and after attack made it just too powerful against sapiens.
Pinzers and buried underlings are a good protection against marauder agresión. You should try it.

Mar 29, 2018 14:13

Subject: Re:Buried underlings op

Pero

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Capitan sangre wrote:Miss guess is that you did not play against a mass buried underling with range combo and plague before. Stepping on them just buy more time for more underlings to be made. The fact that they have the extra damage when they resurface makes your infantry units too weak as a protection against it. Air units are not cost effective and can be easily snipe by wyrms and swamers. The latest patch that gave wyrms avility to move before and after attack made it just too powerful against sapiens.
Pinzers and buried underlings are a good protection against marauder agresión. You should try it.

Nope, haven't had an opponent smart enough to combo underlings with anything. I rarely see artillery in random games. Early on they are huge gamble, even relatively cheap wyrm. You have to shield yourself from harassers like marauders and speeders and even then it's better to field cheaper unit then a glass cannon.

Mar 29, 2018 17:04

Subject: Re:Buried underlings op

Duaneski

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I disagree strongly that underlings are OP. I think that assertion is borderline nutty.

Response above states that a corridor 3 hexes wide and 5 apart makes titans and saps OP. OKAY, so how about 2 hexes wide and 6 apart ? There is a balance that MUST be achieved in map making for the game to work.

Without it YEAH youre gonna have problems. Nerfing one of the fundamental mid to end-game pathways for an entire race because the users of this game don't understand map balancing isn't a good solution. While you're at it why not reduce plasma armor to 7 and walker range to 4.

Grumble grumble ....

Anyway. Strong no from me

Mar 30, 2018 19:36

Subject: Re:Buried underlings op

Pero

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Duaneski wrote:I disagree strongly that underlings are OP. I think that assertion is borderline nutty.

Response above states that a corridor 3 hexes wide and 5 apart makes titans and saps OP. OKAY, so how about 2 hexes wide and 6 apart ? There is a balance that MUST be achieved in map making for the game to work.

Without it YEAH youre gonna have problems. Nerfing one of the fundamental mid to end-game pathways for an entire race because the users of this game don't understand map balancing isn't a good solution. While you're at it why not reduce plasma armor to 7 and walker range to 4.

Grumble grumble ....

Anyway. Strong no from me

Um, I can't edit a map served to me on random match up. Got a bad day or something?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Mar 30, 2018 19:37

Mar 30, 2018 23:30

Subject: Re:Buried underlings op

Capitan sangre

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Map layout plays an important role I agree on that. However with resent changs S vs K match became almost impossible to win for Sapiens. The reason I feel is that kraleans make mass underlings, air units. Use wyrms to snipe helicopters and salamanders to spread plague on sapiens army at a relatively cheap cost. Even you could attack with marauder it is not cost effective because of buried underlings. The solutions I proposed will help sapiens counter this strategy. So far I have not encounter any solution in any map layout. If you have then I would appreciate the feedback. But don't just say change map layouts.

Mar 31, 2018 10:27

Subject: Re:Buried underlings op

Pero

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Capitan sangre wrote:Map layout plays an important role I agree on that. However with resent changs S vs K match became almost impossible to win for Sapiens. The reason I feel is that kraleans make mass underlings, air units. Use wyrms to snipe helicopters and salamanders to spread plague on sapiens army at a relatively cheap cost. Even you could attack with marauder it is not cost effective because of buried underlings. The solutions I proposed will help sapiens counter this strategy. So far I have not encounter any solution in any map layout. If you have then I would appreciate the feedback. But don't just say change map layouts.

If you are getting attacked with wyrms (plural) then you've lost long time ago. If opponent of any race can comfortably build multiple artillery pieces then you weren't aggressive enough early on. Buried underlings take at least 3 turns to employ: 1 to build underlings, 1 to move them off the base since they can't bury there and 1 to finally bury them. What I've learned from opponents better then me is to play the game from turn 1 and apply pressure early on. Delaying your attack for 3 turns only gives opponent time to execute his plans.

Don't be afraid of plague, it's a hassle but not a death sentence. You can live with it for a turn or two. You can also position yourself to get plague on less important units. Plagued marine can be easily eliminated by capturing a naval base (some maps use them as bridges and have plenty of them, probably dating before roads/proper bridges were introduced).

Finally don't be afraid to ask for help in chat. Share a replay and you'll get good feedback (inbetween Trump jokes

) or ask someone to coach you in 1v1 match if you have that much time.

Apr 02, 2018 11:29

Subject: Re:Buried underlings op

Capitan sangre

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Well first of all unless the map is 4 by 4 you can't attack before turn 4 otherwise you are sending your units to their dead without being cost effective. The strategy I keep encountering and losing is mass underling, salamander and swarmer. Kralengs can be very cost effective that way. If you get a helicopter they just get a garuda. If you mass marouder they just get a pinzer. If you mass marines then they mass underlings and buried them so that you cant really push. The game goes like that untill they get wyrms. So at this point is let game. Both players have.big armies with the difference that one salamander can plague half of your army and pretty much is over at that point because you can't heal because you don't have the time. I will post examples of what I am talking about in order to provide evidence of what I am talking about.
The buffs to kralengs help them against titans but makes them overpower against sapiens. So to counter this I proposed a change that will improve the S vs K match but will not affect S vs T or T vs K.

Apr 03, 2018 22:03

Subject: Re:Buried underlings op

The Impaler

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often the most visually appealing maps favour khral. more open maps are needed so titans have an equal chance.

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Jun 24, 2018 05:48

Subject: Re:Buried underlings op

Pento

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Wyrm + underling => op vs Sapien!
+ Some swarmer and salamander and that's it.

Krahl got to powerful and it's no fun at all to play Sapien anymore.
With the last changes you got very limited in the units you can build vs Krahl.

Marine + Marauder + Battery. That's it.

Fuze most senseless unit ever.
Bopper is not of much help vsb Krahl
Tank senseless , no air attack
Engineer very often needed just to keep plague under control
Heli still good but only if the Krahl Player is to stupid not to build a Wyrm.

And the situation for Titans is even worse.

Jun 25, 2018 14:42

Subject: Re:Buried underlings op

The Impaler

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Pento wrote:Wyrm + underling => op vs Sapien!
+ Some swarmer and salamander and that's it.

Krahl got to powerful and it's no fun at all to play Sapien anymore.
With the last changes you got very limited in the units you can build vs Krahl.

Marine + Marauder + Battery. That's it.

Fuze most senseless unit ever.
Bopper is not of much help vsb Krahl
Tank senseless , no air attack
Engineer very often needed just to keep plague under control
Heli still good but only if the Krahl Player is to stupid not to build a Wyrm.

your comments dont make sense. like saying wyrm + underling is op and then also saying tank is useless because it doesnt have air attack. if they are only building wyrm and underling then how is this an issue? fuze is an excellent unit if you use it right. bopper can be used to get the first hit on wyrm to cripple it as you deal with underlings. buying an engineer every time there is plague is a bad idea. plague is ahrd to deal with but it is a talent you must learn. it means positioning units properly BEFORE the plague hits. fuze is great to hit salalamnder at range and heli can reliably hit them with no damage retaliation if they have 7 or lower hp by using roll manipulation.

the game is not as black and white as you say. sapiens was the top race so we buffed titans and khral. it may seem that it is unbalanced now, but only if you were carried by their superior arsenal before the updates. playing on even ground can seem unfair if youre not used to it.

Jun 29, 2018 08:21

Subject: Re:Buried underlings op

Pento

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Try to play Krahl that way and you will see how strong this combination works out.

Wyrm + Underling and some swarmer and/or salamander to keep Marines under control.

Perhaps a ridiculous cheap borfly if the sapien player thinks a tank might help.

And the booper vs Wyrm is just a 1:1 credit exchange.

And for Titan it's even worse to play vs Krahl, but of course Krahl than needs only borfly and underlings.

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