akumaextreme
Messages: 12,
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akumaextreme
Messages: 12,
Joined: Aug 22, 2009,
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I am wondering how everybody feels about the increase of the Swarmer's Light Ground Attack Power. I've been playing games where the other team is just spamming nothing but Swarmers. I've been in games where they are decimating the ground units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Sep 07, 2009 07:57
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Anonymous
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seems fair to me. 2 swarmers couldn't even kill a troop capturing a base before. now they can.
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ADHDeveloper
Messages: 20,
Joined: Jun 12, 2009,
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ADHDeveloper
Messages: 20,
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Khraleans can now build nothing but swarmers and just decimate all opposition.
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Anonymous
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i've seen this on mercury before the swarmer change, so what's different? you need to build marauders to counter along with helis. also keep in mind that swarmers are ineffective against tanks, so use them to block.
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Hachiman
Messages: 118,
Joined: Jun 25, 2009,
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Hachiman
Messages: 118,
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ADHDeveloper wrote:
Khraleans can now build nothing but swarmers and just decimate all opposition.
AS IF!
1 increase to light ground attack hardly does that. You are imagining things. They are only slightly better against three units (Marines, Mecha and Underlings). And two of those can still beat them, particularly on the right terrain (mountains / forest).
Heli's, Plasmas, Eclipses, Marauders and all boats still slaughter them just the same as before. They definately were a little underpowered in non mirror matches I think.
The real problem with Swarmers is that they often make Khral mirror matches a boring spam fest, because (in numbers) they beat Garuda's and Wryms (and Pinzers and underlings can't touch them). That's a hard one to solve without screwing up something else though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Sep 07, 2009 23:42
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Anonymous
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Well, most same race matches are pretty boring, especially when you're both using similar strategies. Khralean vs. Khralean is nowhere near as boring a spamfest as Sapien Vs Sapien, and I just surrender Titan Vs Titans because those matches can literally takes weeks on 1 day turns.
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dingo
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Joined: Aug 28, 2009,
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dingo
Messages: 53,
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This is pretty much becoming a game where people iwll just spam swarmers until the other person quits. I'm getting all kinds of fed up with this currently. I won't even play two player maps that I join that might give them an advantage at some point because of the spamming.
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Hachiman
Messages: 118,
Joined: Jun 25, 2009,
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Hachiman
Messages: 118,
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I was wrong. Swarmer Spam IS all kinds of awful vs Saps
The nerf to Heli and Marauder has made them only about equal to Swarmers 1 on 1, but very underpowered vs Swarmers in numbers.
It is very hard to beat a Khral opponent who spams only Swarmers with Saps on Many maps.
I think the solution is to lower the Swarmers attack vs Air (and/or Ground heavy) a little - so that Heli's (and / or Marauders) can counter them again. Might make mirror matches more interesting too.
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Anonymous
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try blue sapiens vs red khraleans on green valley, mercury, or jungle. or blue khraleans vs red sapiens on montevideo. i can win as sapiens on all 4 maps.
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Anonymous
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Swarmers are not any more powerful against Heli's than they were before. How did this suddenly become an issue?
Dont Saps have an advantage in that their ground units can attack flying units while underlings cannot?
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Anonymous
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If swarmer spam vs. Saps is really a problem now then a very simple and risk free fix is to increase the air attack of some Sap units by 1 point. This has no impact at all on Sap vs. titans (since titans have no flying units) so we know it will not unbalance the game in unexpected ways.
However, I am not yet convinced that Khrals now have a big air advantage vs. Saps.
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Anonymous
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Hachiman - is this only a problem on maps with few forests/ mountains?
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ADHDeveloper
Messages: 20,
Joined: Jun 12, 2009,
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ADHDeveloper
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1- Me and hachiman played on a map with plenty of mountain + forest terrain. It did not matter.
2- Swarmer attack vs heli has not increased, but heli defence has recently decreased and marines which used to be a cheap way to damage the swarmer a bit( when mixed with heli's) are now hurt more by the swarmer and therefore die easier. \
3- Marauders were also nerfed recently causing even more problems vs swarmers.
The key point to note here is this. A swarmer fights uncontested. The only unit that can fire back at it is the Titan eclipse...the imbalance here is vs sapiens. Since a swarmer can fight uncontested, and is relatively cheap, therefore it can in small numbers seriously damage units before the units have a chance to fight back. Further more if a swarmer is damaged but not dead it can simply be retreated behind cover and healed over time. If done right the Khralean player comes out of the battle with minimal losses whereas the sapien is totally decimated.
Now this may not always be the case. On maps which are heavily forested/mountained, the sapien player could possibly win by spamming marines. The key issue there is the distance between the bases. While swarmers will find it easy to travel through air and spam one particular enemy base, the enemy has to move the marines slowly through dense terrain to get them to fight the swarmers.
If anyone else wants to play vs me and teach me a lesson in how to play Sapiens, I welcome it. I hope someone can show me how to beat them, because then I can actually beat the khralean players when I play sapien...because a LOT of khralean players are now spamming swarmers and not much else.
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rolando
Messages: 157,
Joined: Jun 10, 2009,
Location: California, USA
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rolando
Messages: 157,
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I'm game!
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Hachiman
Messages: 118,
Joined: Jun 25, 2009,
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Hachiman
Messages: 118,
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Hachiman - is this only a problem on maps with few forests/ mountains?
I wouldn't think so. You can Spam marines back at him better on those maps, but you are at a big mobility disadvantage too. He can just run when injured, but you can't. On a small map it might work.
If swarmer spam vs. Saps is really a problem now then a very simple and risk free fix is to increase the air attack of some Sap units by 1 point.
What about what that does to Garuda's - the Khrals main attack unit?
Swarmers are not any more powerful against Heli's than they were before. How did this suddenly become an issue?
Heli's and Mauraders recently got nerfed too. People seem to have mainly just discovered this tactic around the time the Swarmer got buffed.
try blue sapiens vs red khraleans on green valley, mercury, or jungle. or blue khraleans vs red sapiens on montevideo. i can win as sapiens on all 4 maps.
Good for you. Try Red saps vs Blue Khrals on Chato hill vs ADHDeveloper and let us know how you go. If you beat him I'd like to know how.
The key point to note here is this. A swarmer fights uncontested...
And it is good at ganging up thanks to mobilty + range. Ganged up it can badly hurt any sap unit that can fight it without taking any damage back.
The Heli and marauder used to be able to shrug off its attack and close range, but not since they've been nerfed...
It just needs toning down a bit vs SOMETHING the saps have, so they have a decent counter.
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