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Uniwar Balance Change
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Do you like the new change?
Yes 36% [ 8 ]
No 55% [ 12 ]
Maybe? 9% [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 22
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nfong

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nfong

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okay so here's what has changed:

Krahleans:
wyrm get +1 more on aerial attack ( 10 to 11 )
infector gets +2 on mobility ( 6 to 8 )

Sapiens:
marine gets -1 aerial attack. ( 4 to 3 )

Just want to compare marines with mechas for a sec:




Mechas seem WAY better...marines have +2 mobility, mechas have+1 defence AND a special ability.
I think downgrading marines might've been a mistake

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at Oct 28, 2010 17:09


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Solitary

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Solitary

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I said nerfing marine air attack was a mistake ages ago, repeatedly xD. I also suggested an alternative which didn't even really get looked at by anyone!

I am going to stop playing as sapiens until the marine attack downgrade is reversed as well, as a side note >.<.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Oct 27, 2010 22:30

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Nicko

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Nicko

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Yeah this is way too much of a nerf... Now helis are easily counterable and saps have no real air defense anymore. What they should do to balance is
-or give the tank some AA capabbility (maybe a bit much)
-give the marine an ability (it's only fair, since mecha and marines have the same stats)
-or reverse that change only...

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nfong

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nfong

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Yeah I asked kralux already in our game, so hopefully he'll do one of the things Nicko mentioned

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zalcore

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zalcore

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I'm not sure if any of you saw my posts on Uniwar chat, but I did give a few suggestions to the balancing of Sapiens. More so on the topic of Titans vs. Sapiens which this tweak didn't effect. I'll put them here along with my thoughts on the current changes. Sapiens is currently my favorite race, they're a between Titans and Khraleans. Cheaper cost wise than titans, but also sturdier like Titan units. Now I'm rambling... Anyways, onto the topic of Marine changes... The marine gave the Sapien race the edge it needed to dominate Khraleans. With its higher anti air attack they could be used to take out the more powerful Garudas while Helicopters took out the Swarmers barely taking any damage. I think that the change was needed, combined with the movement speed on Infectors lowers the overpoweredness of the Marine. Removing it as a spammable insta-win unit against Khraleans. I would suggest giving the change a chance, see how it plays out, if this Marine damage reduction does make it impossible for Sapien to beat Khralean then it probably does need to be changed back, but in the games I've been playing, I can still destroy the Khralean airforce coming out ahead. Using Marines to block and give the Gang Up bonus rather than use them as the main attack force.

On Uniwar chat I was randomly brainstorming after the topic of the changes was brought up. Someone said something about the Marine not having a special ability. Without it's higher anti air capabilities it had become the weakest pawn unit. There's also the problem of Titans ability to create an impenetrable defense against Sapiens and slowly push out eventually destroying the Sapien army. Because of the walker range, the Engineer's Emp is near impossible to pull of, they get taken out before the have the chance and the tanks aren't strong enough to take out plasmas without it. There are multiple solution to this:

1: Bring back Emp on the go. The ability to Emp after moving.
(This would make the Engineer somewhere near overpowered)

2: Increase the defense of the Engineer so that it can survive a hit from the walker.
(This would leave them as the most powerful support unit)

3: Find a new source to help take out the Plasma Tanks.

Back to the Marine ability. I was thinking about giving them an Armor Peircing Bullet ability, they could have a special attack once every x turns (6-8}. This attack would have a 2 range. And deal low damage (1-2) but would ignore defense, much like the Assimilator's UV. It would give the Sapien army a way to destroy plasma tanks backed up by walkers. It would also give the marine a purpose in TvS, it was only useful mountainous maps (gang-up and small damage to plasmas) and to block to keep artillary alive longer. Because this ability would have low damage it wouldn't be overpowered, it would take 5 or more marines to kill a plasma, which would cost the same amount (500 credits), it would be more of an aid to help the tank destroy the plasmas.

I should probably move this paragraph to the suggestion section... Lazyness may win though... Sorry it took so long for me to finish this... I sort've forgot about it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Oct 30, 2010 20:16


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nfong

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nfong

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I like idea #1.
I just want marine's aerial attack back up to 4...cmon devs!!!!!

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Solitary

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I beat a 2200 titan player in 6 rounds yesterday but that doesn't mean saps are better than titans, it just means he made a mistake xD. Likewise this change doesn't make khrals unbeatable as saps but the highest ranked legitimate player in the game favoured khrals as a race before this update, so I'd view nerfing marines as an overreaction. I liked the idea of plague range 2 and giving it a cooldown as plague is basically useless atm and forcing the enemy to build an engineer or two takes a lot of pressure off a marine push. Don't forget khrals already have underling with resurface bonus to weaken marines and the tendancy of most players to not use it doesn't alter the fact that it's there as an option. I also still don't see what was wrong with nerfing swarmer ground heavy attack a little and making it cheaper to build as the swarmer is weak enough against helis that it wouldn't be overpowered.

I like the idea of giving engineer 1 def so walker can't one shot it more than I like the idea of emp on the move as I think emp on the move might be slightly too powerful, or raise the mobility as was done with infector. I've played so many games on terrain heavy maps where titans just spam mecha with a few walkers and it requires a very precise build to even create the possibility of breaking in, which is stupid against a two unit combination. I also suggested as a different option to raise battery def by two so rather than walker + uv + uv to kill multiple batteries in one turn then it would require walkers to focus fire the batteries. That would force titans to target either batteries or engineers and make a push far more realistic against mecha spam + walker. As a side note, try building a helicopter if titans do that .

I also vote two smash damage against ants and uv to affect buried units although I'd say the reasons for that are pretty obvious xD.
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Cpt Hawaiian

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Cpt Hawaiian

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  Solitary wrote: I liked the idea of plague range 2 and giving it a cooldown as plague is basically useless atm and forcing the enemy to build an engineer or two takes a lot of pressure off a marine push. Don't forget khrals already have underling with resurface bonus to weaken marines and the tendancy of most players to not use it doesn't alter the fact that it's there as an option....I also vote two smash damage against ants and uv to affect buried units although I'd say the reasons for that are pretty obvious xD.


I totally agree with this. People don't realize how effective a few buried underlings are at raping a front Sap line, in mountains, trees, or wherever, even when they pop out of swamp to attack. (Thinking The Bog map here). And plague is really never seen in games. The infector is almost solely a healing unit, and noone wants to risk losing it to just infect a few Saps. And it is rarely risked to steal marines because it's not as even a trade as stealing with other races is because you lose 300 when that thing goes down. I actually like the increased mobility of the thing, because it will allow greater tactical use of it for stealing a marine that might create a new chokepoint. But I think buffing the range of plague to 2 would make everything so much more interesting and more so directly weaken packs of marines. (what if the infector had to "pay" 1 or 2 of its hit points to do a 2 range plague? Or maybe was disabled for 1 turn thereafter from healing or moving? I don't know, just brainstorming)

Regarding underlings, yes, UV should hit them and smash damage should be 2! But NO EMP on the go, please!!!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Oct 29, 2010 11:38


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nfong

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  Cpt Hawaiian wrote:
Regarding underlings, yes, UV should hit them and smash damage should be 2! But NO EMP on the go, please!!!


I suggested the UV idea to kralux, and he said that would be unrealistic, because ultraviolet rays don't go through the ground.

But yes, smash damage should be 2, and it should be done by ALL units. Not just ground heavy.

And regarding emp on the go, maybe that might be a good idea...but I dunno, since I mostly play titans.
To even out titans vs saps, I would raise the tank's defence 1-2 points, and also give it 1-2 aerial attack.

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Nixflix

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Nixflix

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Haha! Uv doesn't go through the ground ;) Lol
Sorry khraleans here :D
I don't think every unit should have a smash of 2. Maybe ground heavies have smash of two and ground lights have smash of 1.
Btw emp on the go, I believe, would not be a good idea. At all.
Just imagine an engineer rush with maybe a tank or two. Or just marines as defense

Sorry if i offended you
thethanx

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thethanx

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Ummmm I'm sorry, the dev's won't consider a balancing point because IT'S NOT REALISTIC?
I'd like to point out that this is a game involving a futuristic robot race and an bug like alien race. If you want realism then EMP should DESTROY Titans instead of just temporarily immobilizing them... Afterall an EMP shock actually fries electronics it doesn't just stall them.

I mean, if you can give me a solid reason involving GAMEPLAY why UV shouldn't hit buried lings fine, But realism? I mean cmon...
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Cpt Hawaiian

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  nfong wrote:

I suggested the UV idea to kralux, and he said that would be unrealistic, because ultraviolet rays don't go through the ground.

But yes, smash damage should be 2, and it should be done by ALL units. Not just ground heavy.

And regarding emp on the go, maybe that might be a good idea...but I dunno, since I mostly play titans.
To even out titans vs saps, I would raise the tank's defence 1-2 points, and also give it 1-2 aerial attack.


I think they should rename UV as Death Ray. Because those DO go through the ground then. And that would be FAR more realistic. lol And just to reiterate, I do NOT think EMP on the go would be good. Way overpowered. Not sure really how to buff Saps vs. Titans at this point, but I'm not so sure about raising tank defense because they are so spammable. They're cheaper than Pinzers, after all.

But as for Khrals vs. Titans, yeah, I think some combination of ideas would be good, ranging from either lowering the popup attack bonus (I think this should definitely be lowered), to smash damage of 2, to no underground healing, to "death ray" hitting underground, etc. And actually, I kinda like your idea of everything causing smashing damage with only heavies doing 2. Maybe then buried underlings could still heal in that case.

thethanx: I totally agree with you here. Realism? We're talking about game balance here! Call it a Death Ray, then! haha

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nfong

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nfong

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Yeah, I really don't know...
sigh.

Good thing I don't play saps that much anyways. They're too...human.
sigh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 29, 2010 20:52


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arch-nemesis

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Let me start by saying that I prefer playing as sapians (but ATM I'm only playing random games). And I for one love the marine nerf.

It only effects two match ups: sapian vs sapian, and sapian vs khraleans.

If you think that the marine is not one of the most powerful units vs a khralean army (an air based race) then idk what to tell you. Marines were way overpowered vs garauda and swarmers! Not so much vs a heli tho.

I am still murdering khralean players with marine and heli spam. This match up was way unbalanced before the update and is now only "strong".

I think eveyone crying over the nerf is over reacting. The marine is STILL very strong against garaudas and swarmers.

I do believe giving the marine a special ability would be nice. But might make them overpowered again.

Were talking about a 100 credit unit here!!! Why not just make all 100 credit units have the same stats so y'all will stop crying!
zalcore

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zalcore

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Death ray... Not the right name...as I recall... Death rays "destroy" everything... I would go for something on the level of sound, it wouldnt hurt the robots, but anything with sound "ears" would get hit (Do khraleans have ears?). Something like Ultra Sonic... Piercing Sound... I'm someone will think of something good. They sound waves would continue underground and damage burrylings, possibly even amplify it to 2 damage(?). I also mentioned the UV not hitting burrylings to Kralux and got the same explanation as nfong.

Emp on the go: The only reason I mentioned this was because I remember somewhere on this forumn that it had been in the original release and had been removed. It would be imbalanced, though it may even out TvS. Or even turn the scales (Woot!).


Smash damage: I agree with the 2 smash damage for heavy units, or it could alternate between 1 and 2. Burrylinhs should be killable... In their current state only marauders can do so, and the cost difference isn't worth it (100 vs 500). Giving 1 smash damage to light units would make them too easy to kill/weaken, nor would it make sense. Another on the topic of burrylings... This may not be important, but they should only get bonuses while an infector is on top of the burried underling. Again, it would make more sense (you have to be in contact to get the bonus.


Buffing the Sapien tank as suggested would make it as powerful as a Pinzer for cheaper, the price would have to be equalized. The sapien tank was created wothout AA because the other Sapien units make up for it. I'd rather have the engineer buffed than the tank, seeing as that's what's keeping it from kiling plasmas in the first place.

2 range Plague: I'm all for this, plague is way too under used, though the on the go aspect might need to be removed making it too similar to the Engineer's EMP. I think the devs were striving for all the races to have units that were completely different.

Any thought on my Armor Piercing Bullet idea? I forgot to finish the post untill now.

Last thing, the marine was nerfed, but the infected marine wasn't. The converted units have been known to be stronger but with the infector speed buff this might become too much of a hazard for the helicopters...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 30, 2010 20:21


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