No balance at all

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Jan 14, 2011 05:10

Subject: No balance at all

lion3

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Joined: Jun 30, 2010,
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I love Uniwar, but even after 2 years of fixing and adjusting, the game is not balanced at all.

In almost all cases the winner is pre-determined by the map/ race assignments before the game ever begins.

For non-naval maps, as far as I can tell, the main issues are as follows:
1) There are NO balanced maps. I cant think of any map where all 3 races are equal.
2) Khrals beat titans on all maps.
3) Saps beat Khrals and Titans on all maps except for special cases as follows:
4) Titans can beat Saps on maps where the bases are all in one spot and the Titan can turtle up and slowly build on that spot.
5) Titans beat Saps on maps where there is a wall of mountains separating the armies (great wall and wild-planes).
6) Khrals can beat saps on maps where there are few or no usable mountains/forests.

For naval maps I have less experience, but the main issues seem to be:
1) Spamming heli's/ garudas beats just building ships. So Titans are at a big disadvantage.
2) Naval battles are almost always the same, very long, repetitive, and boring.

At the high levels of play, there are almost no games available. This is because as soon as a game is posted, it is easy to see the race that will beat it.

The random games are a good idea, but most cases its just pure luck. If I start a random game and get a losing race/map, its over. No point in even playing the game.

So here are my 2 questions for the top players (2300+) only:
Do you agree with my points and how do we fix the game?

Jan 14, 2011 12:20

Subject: Re:No balance at all

boourns

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Nice post. I agree with almost all of it. I am not at your play level or experience, so I had a few questions (sorry if it derails the thread a bit but these forums arent exactly bursting with activity).

1) I feel that Khrals can stand with Saps on most maps as long as they are very good at minimizing the marines with buried ling traps and infectors. The advantage does seem to go to the Sapien in this matchup but not by enough to call it an auto-win. What am i missing here?

2) Most naval maps allow the titan player to run mechas and eclipses as blockers for their ships - i never seem to have trouble with guruda spam. A balance of destroyers and helis rushing the titan player does seem to be a winning strat though.

3) Is great wall the one with many low resource bases along the sides and a line of mountains down the middle with 2 bases in it? I never play that map because i find it poorly designed but i am failing to see how this map favors titans vs saps?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 14, 2011 12:20

Jan 14, 2011 14:51

Subject: Re:No balance at all

lion3

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boourns wrote: Nice post. I agree with almost all of it. I am not at your play level or experience, so I had a few questions (sorry if it derails the thread a bit but these forums arent exactly bursting with activity).

Thanks

boourns wrote:
1) I feel that Khrals can stand with Saps on most maps as long as they are very good at minimizing the marines with buried ling traps and infectors. The advantage does seem to go to the Sapien in this matchup but not by enough to call it an auto-win. What am i missing here?

Very good Khrl players can stand up to saps for a while, but the saps ultimately dominate if they have terrain. They create a line of marines that are very strong in mountains or forests. Then they hide several helis behind the marines. The helis snipe at the khral units and fall back behind the marines. With 3 helis, even a pinzer gets killed in no time.

boourns wrote:
2) Most naval maps allow the titan player to run mechas and eclipses as blockers for their ships - i never seem to have trouble with guruda spam. A balance of destroyers and helis rushing the titan player does seem to be a winning strat though.

Some naval maps will let you build blockers. Others will not. Also, the blockers are often easy prey for the ships that can hit them from a distance.

boourns wrote:
3) Is great wall the one with many low resource bases along the sides and a line of mountains down the middle with 2 bases in it? I never play that map because i find it poorly designed but i am failing to see how this map favors titans vs saps?

Yes, that is the great wall map. The wall of mountains in the middle means that the Sap Marauder is completely useless (cannot get through) and the sap truck is also limited. The titan just turtles up and slowly builds well defended walkers. With the better range, the titan eventually wins after a very long game.

Jan 14, 2011 19:20

Subject: Re:No balance at all

asdf

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In my opinion, on Naval War map, titans absolutely destroy Khrals. The numerical advantage of garudas over hydros isn't enough to overcome proper hydro positioning and good use of blockers. Khrals are forced to make levis to have a chance, but still titans have huge advantage.

Jan 14, 2011 19:53

Subject: Re:No balance at all

nfong

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asdf wrote: In my opinion, on Naval War map, titans absolutely destroy Khrals. The numerical advantage of garudas over hydros isn't enough to overcome proper hydro positioning and good use of blockers. Khrals are forced to make levis to have a chance, but still titans have huge advantage.

Do you care to test that out or are you all talk? ...

and in reply to Lion, I don't think we can fix the game. The reason all of the maps are unbalanced is mainly because the races are too different. If they were more similar, than the game might be a bit interesting, but atm, each race has almost no similarity to another race.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 14, 2011 19:55

When life gives you lemons...

"TAKE YOUR DAMN LEMONS BACK, LIFE. I DON'T WANT YOUR STINKIN' LEMONS."

Jan 14, 2011 19:56

Subject: Re:No balance at all

asdf

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I'm not good with titans, so how would I prove it to you?

Jan 14, 2011 19:59

Subject: Re:No balance at all

nfong

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Invite me to a game anyways.

When life gives you lemons...

"TAKE YOUR DAMN LEMONS BACK, LIFE. I DON'T WANT YOUR STINKIN' LEMONS."

Jan 15, 2011 02:01

Subject: Re:No balance at all

lion3

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nfong wrote:
and in reply to Lion, I don't think we can fix the game. The reason all of the maps are unbalanced is mainly because the races are too different. If they were more similar, than the game might be a bit interesting, but atm, each race has almost no similarity to another race.

I do think there are some minor modifications that could make the game more balanced. For example, since Khrls always beat Titans on non naval maps, then Titan UV should hurt buried underlings. Also PT's moving over a buried underling should do 2 damage (not just 1). This has no impact on any type of battle except Titan vs. Khral. It does make Titan vs. Khral games slightly more fair.

However, I agree the maps/ races will never be completely balanced. So here is how you fix it:
When someone sets up a rated game, he should be able to specify something like this: "I will play titans and will beat khrals on this map provided that I get a $400 starting bonus. Anyone care to take the challenge?".

Essentially, people should be compensated with extra starting cash in return for playing the weaker race.
An even better option than extra starting cash would be something like: my bases pay 10% extra every turn.

Thoughts?

Jan 15, 2011 15:31

Subject: Re:No balance at all

nfong

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lion3 wrote:

I asked kralux about having UV affect buried underlings before, but he said that wouldn't be realistic. (I guess UV rays don't work underground?) :/
But I like your PT idea, and your extra cash idea is interesting. Would those "handicapped" games be rated?

When life gives you lemons...

"TAKE YOUR DAMN LEMONS BACK, LIFE. I DON'T WANT YOUR STINKIN' LEMONS."

Jan 16, 2011 02:17

Subject: Re:No balance at all

lion3

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Yes, the games will have to be rated. I think the last few weeks protest about having only random games be rated has shown us that most players (including me) have no interest in playing unrated games.

UV blasts should harm buried underlings. Its just 1 point of damage so you could say the underlings are not buried very deeply and it does hit them. Khrals dominate Titans on all maps, it is the most obvious imbalance in the game and it must be fixed.

Having put more thought into it, I now think the money bonus system could even be automatic. The server should review the history of all games played on each map with each race combination and should gradually adjust payments to make the maps balanced.

Example: We know that Khrals always beat Titans on GreatWall map. So gradually give Titans a monetary bonus and slowly increase that bonus every time Khrals continue to beat Titans on that map. At some point the bonus will be enough to make the map balanced so that the Khral/ Titan win loss rate stays around 50%.

Do the same thing for every map/race combination until they are all balanced and the server statistics show that every race combination wins about 50% of the time on every map.

Note: the adjustments should be very gradual, and should probably only count pro-games where both sides are rated 1900+

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jan 16, 2011 02:28

Jan 16, 2011 09:52

Subject: Re:No balance at all

nixoncc

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Joined: Jul 27, 2009,
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One possible solution - More Races, or random race assignment

Jan 16, 2011 11:48

Subject: Re:No balance at all

asdf

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If you think khrals dominate titans on all maps, then you haven't played any good titans players.

Jan 16, 2011 12:18

Subject: Re:No balance at all

lion3

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asdf wrote: If you think khrals dominate titans on all maps, then you haven't played any good titans players.

Yes, I do think Khrals dominate Titans on all non-naval maps (except maybe very small and "gotcah" type maps).
And yes, I have played against practically every player who ever played this game including the best of the best.
If anyone thinks I am wrong, send me a game invite and prove it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 16, 2011 13:06

Jan 16, 2011 16:19

Subject: No balance at all

Hachiman

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Joined: Jun 25, 2009,
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Hey Lion,

Have you played Ismael? He's a dev and very good with Titans vs Khrals. If not I suggest you invite him and talk about it with him in game.

I suggested a similar auto map handicapping system to him and to Kralux before they did the only random rated games thing, but they went with that instead. They might be more receptive now that didn't work (they thought it was an interesting idea back then anyhow).

I've found a much better way to get their attention is invite them to a game and have a friendly, respectful chat. They seem like pretty reasonable fellows if you do that, and willing to consider changes.

I think handicapping the maps with respect to high level results is the most likely way to get the game reasonably balanced too.

Jan 16, 2011 16:42

Subject: Re:No balance at all

nfong

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I think Titans should beat Krahls now on Dead Monk.
I played Ismael before, and he was excellent with Titans. He knew exactly where each of my ants were :3

When life gives you lemons...

"TAKE YOUR DAMN LEMONS BACK, LIFE. I DON'T WANT YOUR STINKIN' LEMONS."

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