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To make this forum more interesting, lets start posting some complex real game situation to see what other players think/ would do. I'll get started, hopefully others will follow.
I think Starvation is one of the most well balanced maps in the game. Titan/ Saps are about even. Saps beat Khrals, but not easily. Khrals beat Titans (as usual).
Here is a real game situation.
The Sap player has been able to capture 2 bases, so he has a big money advantage. However, the Titan player has turtled up behind the mountains and is using the longer range of the walkers to keep the Sap units away. How does this game end? What would you do?
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Yes, the games will have to be rated. I think the last few weeks protest about having only random games be rated has shown us that most players (including me) have no interest in playing unrated games.
UV blasts should harm buried underlings. Its just 1 point of damage so you could say the underlings are not buried very deeply and it does hit them. Khrals dominate Titans on all maps, it is the most obvious imbalance in the game and it must be fixed.
Having put more thought into it, I now think the money bonus system could even be automatic. The server should review the history of all games played on each map with each race combination and should gradually adjust payments to make the maps balanced.
Example: We know that Khrals always beat Titans on GreatWall map. So gradually give Titans a monetary bonus and slowly increase that bonus every time Khrals continue to beat Titans on that map. At some point the bonus will be enough to make the map balanced so that the Khral/ Titan win loss rate stays around 50%.
Do the same thing for every map/race combination until they are all balanced and the server statistics show that every race combination wins about 50% of the time on every map.
Note: the adjustments should be very gradual, and should probably only count pro-games where both sides are rated 1900+
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nfong wrote:
and in reply to Lion, I don't think we can fix the game. The reason all of the maps are unbalanced is mainly because the races are too different. If they were more similar, than the game might be a bit interesting, but atm, each race has almost no similarity to another race.
I do think there are some minor modifications that could make the game more balanced. For example, since Khrls always beat Titans on non naval maps, then Titan UV should hurt buried underlings. Also PT's moving over a buried underling should do 2 damage (not just 1). This has no impact on any type of battle except Titan vs. Khral. It does make Titan vs. Khral games slightly more fair.
However, I agree the maps/ races will never be completely balanced. So here is how you fix it:
When someone sets up a rated game, he should be able to specify something like this: "I will play titans and will beat khrals on this map provided that I get a $400 starting bonus. Anyone care to take the challenge?".
Essentially, people should be compensated with extra starting cash in return for playing the weaker race.
An even better option than extra starting cash would be something like: my bases pay 10% extra every turn.
Thoughts?
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boourns wrote: Nice post. I agree with almost all of it. I am not at your play level or experience, so I had a few questions (sorry if it derails the thread a bit but these forums arent exactly bursting with activity).
Thanks
boourns wrote:
1) I feel that Khrals can stand with Saps on most maps as long as they are very good at minimizing the marines with buried ling traps and infectors. The advantage does seem to go to the Sapien in this matchup but not by enough to call it an auto-win. What am i missing here?
Very good Khrl players can stand up to saps for a while, but the saps ultimately dominate if they have terrain. They create a line of marines that are very strong in mountains or forests. Then they hide several helis behind the marines. The helis snipe at the khral units and fall back behind the marines. With 3 helis, even a pinzer gets killed in no time.
boourns wrote:
2) Most naval maps allow the titan player to run mechas and eclipses as blockers for their ships - i never seem to have trouble with guruda spam. A balance of destroyers and helis rushing the titan player does seem to be a winning strat though.
Some naval maps will let you build blockers. Others will not. Also, the blockers are often easy prey for the ships that can hit them from a distance.
boourns wrote:
3) Is great wall the one with many low resource bases along the sides and a line of mountains down the middle with 2 bases in it? I never play that map because i find it poorly designed but i am failing to see how this map favors titans vs saps?
Yes, that is the great wall map. The wall of mountains in the middle means that the Sap Marauder is completely useless (cannot get through) and the sap truck is also limited. The titan just turtles up and slowly builds well defended walkers. With the better range, the titan eventually wins after a very long game.
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I love Uniwar, but even after 2 years of fixing and adjusting, the game is not balanced at all.
In almost all cases the winner is pre-determined by the map/ race assignments before the game ever begins.
For non-naval maps, as far as I can tell, the main issues are as follows:
1) There are NO balanced maps. I cant think of any map where all 3 races are equal.
2) Khrals beat titans on all maps.
3) Saps beat Khrals and Titans on all maps except for special cases as follows:
4) Titans can beat Saps on maps where the bases are all in one spot and the Titan can turtle up and slowly build on that spot.
5) Titans beat Saps on maps where there is a wall of mountains separating the armies (great wall and wild-planes).
6) Khrals can beat saps on maps where there are few or no usable mountains/forests.
For naval maps I have less experience, but the main issues seem to be:
1) Spamming heli's/ garudas beats just building ships. So Titans are at a big disadvantage.
2) Naval battles are almost always the same, very long, repetitive, and boring.
At the high levels of play, there are almost no games available. This is because as soon as a game is posted, it is easy to see the race that will beat it.
The random games are a good idea, but most cases its just pure luck. If I start a random game and get a losing race/map, its over. No point in even playing the game.
So here are my 2 questions for the top players (2300+) only:
Do you agree with my points and how do we fix the game?
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Ok after playing more games against top Khral players, I was beaten twice (with me playing Saps).
So I guess the answer to my question is no, Saps dont always beat Khrals.
I therefore withdraw my suggestion to increase the Swarmer air attack.
However, I would still point out the following:
1) Khral payers only beat me on maps with no mountains and no forests (or no usable mountains & forests) so the Sap marine was not nearly as useful.
2) The games were very close.
3) I did win a re-match with one of the Khral players.
4) I was not playing my best.
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So, how do we fix the game balance?
My best idea is that Swarmer Arial attack should be increased from 3 to 4.
This will have no impact on Khral vs. Titan battles since Titans have no flying units.
This will also (obviously) have no impact on Sap vs. Titan battles which are already fairly well balanced.
It will, give the Khral player a better weapon against the Sap strategy of spamming Marines + Heli's since now the swarmer will be able to hurt both units.
Will this impact Khral vs. Khral battles? Possibly yes, since we will see more Swarmers and less Garudas in such battles. But I don't think it will dramatically change those battles.
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Since creating this thread, I have had about 20 challenges where other players tried to beat me with them as Khrals and me as Saps. So far I have won every singe challenge on every map.
My playbook is simple:
1) Spam marines + Heli's
2) Move marines to mountains or forests whenever possible.
3) Strike with Heli's and then hide them behind marines.
4) Occasionally use Marauders to take out Wyrms.
5) Use 5 heli's in one turn to kill any Pinzers that show up.
I can never "prove" that Saps always beat Khrals, since its always possible that some great Khral player will find a way to win. However, I think I have shown ample evidence that there is a game imbalance that should be fixed.
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dr. pepper wrote: I definitely do not think this is the case, but I do not have the skill with Khraleans to prove you wrong. Are you saying that you always beat Khrals? When was the last time you lost to them?
Thats exactly what I am saying. I cannot even remember the last time I lost a game to Khrals.
In the past month I played about 60 games and won 59 of them. In most of the games I was playing Saps vs. Khrals. My ranking went from 1500 to almost 2300 in one month.
In my other account (lion37), it a similar story.
Not bragging, just stating the facts.
If any Khral player out there thinks he can beat Saps, please send me a game invite and prove me wrong.
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thethanx wrote: Lion, I'll gladly set up a game or two, however, just to clarify, are we specifically talking about only 2 player maps? I feel as though it can make a difference as unrated larger maps can give khrals more of an advantage... Hey if nothing else I'll learn how to always beat khrals with saps right?
I dont see why larger maps would make a difference here so I am happy to play them as well.
However, my comment was only about non-naval maps.
I dont play naval maps and dont know if or how having ships changes the final outcome.
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nfong wrote: I've played around 10-15 saps vs titans games, with me as saps, and I've only won around 3 of them.
How do you attack Titans with saps? The helis are no good against the plasmas and eclilpses, and the sap's tank is horrible compared to a plasma. Is rushing the only way to catch the titans off guard? and if it is, then that means saps have no chance against titans on big maps...
Its not easy, but Saps can beat Titans on maps where the bases are spread out (so the Titan player cannot Turtle).
The specifics depend on the map and on what the Titan player does, but here are some general guidelines:
1) Forget about Helis. They are almost useless against Titans. The only time I use them is to try and reach a far away Walker that is hiding in the back.
2) Engineers and EMP are your best friend. Use them a lot. Try to set up your engineers for a chain of multiple EMP hits one turn after the other.
3) The basic idea is to create attacks on multiple Titan bases at the same time. The Titans do not have enough money or mobility to defend several bases simultaneously.
4) Use tanks with engineers behind them to fight PT's. Let the PT attack your tank first, then EMP, and heal your tank. Next turn hit the PT from multiple sides with gangup bonuses.
5) Use Marauders long range to target multiple bases at the same time. If there are 2 Titan bases that are fairly far apart, and you have an engineer and several marines in range of each of those bases. Build a Marauder that can reach them both. This often means the Titan player needs a PT on both bases to defend them.
6) Make sure to attack early and never give the Titan player time to build up his defenses.
The perfect map for trying all this is Starvation. I almost always beat Titans on this map using Saps.
Good Luck.
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I strongly disagree with making the Heli's any stronger.
Right now Saps are by far the strongest race in the game.
They beat Khrals on practically all maps.
And they beat Titans on all maps where the bases are spread out (so the Titan cannot turtle up).
If anyone disagrees, please send me some game invites and I will prove my point.
Note: I am only talking about non-naval maps. I rarely play maps with ships, so I don't know who wins on those.
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thethanx wrote: I agree with Nix, there are plenty of maps where khrals beat saps on land maps. Sure, if they only spawn Garuda's you're likely to win every time, but a smart khral player backs up his swarmers and garudas with pinzers and wyrms... so that marines and choppers can't just walk all over them.
On which maps do you think Khrals beat Saps?
Maybe you want to prove your point by sending me some game invites?
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dr. pepper wrote: Either I'm not figuring something out or I think Titans have a definite advantage on this map due to the ability to block the middle square with a plasma tank and start accumulating walkers and sieging my bases from long range....
You can try all kinds of tricks, but I am fairly sure a good Titan player will always beat Sapiens on this map. Same thing for the Great Wall map.
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dr. pepper wrote: I personally find it very difficult to beat Khrals who go first on Green Valley as Saps. Do you consistently win that matchup?
Good point. Green Valley is a "gotcha" map with a setup that allows Khrals to block the initial base caps. Its not a real battle on that map, just a trick. What I meant was that Saps always win when you have a normal map where a real fight develops, not a "gotcha" map.
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