| Author |
Message |
|
|
|
RaDmit wrote:By changing the characteristics of units , how you do it , you can ruin the balance even more. I believe that a balance should be adjusted differently.
For example,
for Kharl - allow underling infecting plague marines .
for Sap - add battery capacity emp , when firing on the Titans , the battery will hit the target emp .
for Titan - give walkers the ability to shoot underling underground, possibly causing a 50 % damage , or perhaps 100 % . Assimilator must demonstrate underling underground at a distance of 5 hexes .
These abilities can be made available as from the beginning of the game, and make it possible to study them during the game for a certain amount , in one turn or several turns .
I am not sure why you started off with what seems to be an insult, but I like your ideas. The are very creative. I commend you for thinking outside the box. I agree with Sims that they are very big changes. Much bigger than we have been shooting for, but great none the less.
Sadly, all those ideas would require new programming so we can not entertain them for any of the upcoming updates; however, when the new units are introduced, we will consider all three of your ideas as we try to fix new issues introduced by the new units.
|
|
|
|
Apercent wrote:Thesis: Everything was good except for the swarmers and wyrm. Do you agree?
I think it is slightly more complicated than that. While the swarmer and wyrm debuffs did make the marauder even more powerful and the swarmer weaker, I am not convinced changing them back is the best option for fixing the KvS problem. Those debuffs were crucial for balancing KvT.
Before I move on, let me address a foreseen counter argument. Some think that KvT now favors Titans which may be partially true, but I would argue that it is relatively fairly balanced. Here are my arguments:
In addition to my personal experience (I still win as Khral against Titans 80+% of the time), look at the game history of the top four players of the December Tournament. There are a total of five TvK matchups. 100% of the time, the best player was able to win both matchups (even against good players like Sims and Willingham). This would suggest that the races are fairly balanced. That being said, the Titans consistently won with less rounds which shows that the Titans do have a slight advantage.
Another important note: the wyrm and swarmer (less so) are still used very effectively in these match ups.
Because of this, I would argue that changing the wyrm and swarmer back completety would be too drastic. Perhaps other lighter buffs could be made to the swarmer and wyrm that are more directed at the Sapien race. Swarmer +1 G.H. (only) and/or +1 G.L. has been suggested as an alternative as well as wyrm +1 air. Other alternatives have been suggested as well.
|
|
|
Hello Uniwarriors,
We are beginning discussions on the next balance update. Thank you for your patience as we waited to see how strategies would change in light of the Last update.
Here are a few things to know before commenting on this thread:
1. We understand Khraleans vs Sapiens got worse after the previous update. This update will be a great opportunity to fix this.
2. This and all future balance changes will be much smaller (1-4 changes max).
3. Now that replays are public, please reference high level replays to reinforce your arguments. This can easily add a lot of credibility to your argument while giving other players a reference to see what you are saying.
Here is an example of how this might play out:
If a player says the Khraleans are weak against against the Sapiens, anyone can argue with this. However, if that player then backs his claim up by pointing to Earth and Legia's mirrored matchup in the December tournament (both of them won as Sapiens within 20 rounds) then anyone wanting to argue with that player must reference another game and explain why that map or those players caused an unreliable outcome.
Furthermore, when discussing changes, referencing games is helpful as well. Those wanting the Pinzer to have 3 air attack might point out that the turning point in both games was when the Sapien player got enough helicopters to kill a pinzer and receive little damage in return. Those opposed to the pinzer having 3 air could then agree with that players assessment while still disagreeing with the changes and explain their reasons.
Few extra notes:
A) Games where 1 race wins in both games suggest imbalance (especially if they are each won in less than 20-25 rounds).
B) Please watch the games (instead of glancing at the stats) as sometimes high level players will surrender a mirrored game even if the game is not yet concluded (ie. Gout vs Earth in December).
|
|
|
This is all great feedback. Keep it coming.
I like your suggestion Legia to increase Swarmer's other stats (i.e. G.L.), but this doesn't fix the swarmer getting 2 shotted which is poses a problem in KvK on very spread out maps (i.e. The current one in the tournament).
This is a big deal, but it doesn't have to be a deal breaker. "Wheel of fortune" is kind of an A-typical map. The swarmer could be made to be more like the eclipse with high damage. That would be more fitting for a unit with range and would fix how overpowered the unit was, but it causes lots of problems as we are seeing right now.
Unikz- great point. I have made sure that that is very high on the list to discuss for the 2nd balance update.
|
|
|
Ok. We might try to make 1 or 2 reaction adjustments to offset the pain while we discuss a second balance update.
I know that SvK has serious problems and swarmers get 2 shotted by other swarmers in kvk. What about the other match ups?
Seems like SvT is better?
What about KvT? Was it too much help for the titans or is it pretty even?
|
|
|
Thank you everyone for your posts. This is great feedback. We are going to give it more time to let the initial shock wear off. We are all having to adjust our play-styles which is uncomfortable. Hopefully after we adjust, a clearer picture of the situation will appear.
My initial impression is similar to many of yours. Here are some of my thoughts that haven't yet been said. (some had been said)
SvT seems to have improved. The tank's +1 defense and battery's 2-4 range seem to significantly help the saps secure better positions for the posibility of out playing the titan opponent. This being said, I agree that a +1 G.H. might still be needed for the battery. We will give it more time.
I am disappointed that the marauder nerf has not been as effective as I had hoped. A marauder now has a 25ish% chance of soloing a capping mecha which is great (not that difficult with role manipulation), but it is still an extremely strong unit. (and it is now way more powerful against swarmers (more on later)).
KvK is more fun on most maps, but I agree that easily 2 shotting a swarmer with 2 swarmers needs to be fixed and putting it's defense back up to 5 the best solution we have so far, but I want to at least look at other options before resorting to reverting it back.
KvT also seems to have improved. I know people are upset about the swarmer and we may end up changing it back, but it fixes a lot of problems here. The eclipse is much better since it is a strong unit against saps. I think KvT is much more even, but if someone thinks I am wrong, I would love to play a game with them. Invite me to a game and make me the one you think is the weaker race (this goes for any match up). (label the game "balance" and I will prioritize the game so we play through it faster.)
SvS- I haven't played much of this. Has anything changed much in this department? It doesn't seem like we did much to help marauder build up? Can anyone confirm this?
SvK- This is a big problem and needs to be a addressed. The marauder shreds the swarmer now and the buffs to the pinzer and garuda can only make up for this on a few maps. The infector is also stronger with the marauder nerf, but again, it is too map dependent. This needs to be addressed. I would ask that people entertain the idea of fixing this without undoing the swarmer nerf before resorting to that option (i.e. nerfing the marauder more). We want more diversity in units and so far, the swarmer is still being heavily used in games.
|
|
|
|
With the swarmer nerf and the pinzer buff, a new meta should form in KvK match ups. Please comment here with what you find works best.
|
|
|
Duke4ever wrote:Great! But for information, the mecha II from sapiens seems not to benefit to the air buff of his original version. We will try this anyway 
Great point. We will add that to the discussion for future balance updates. Thanks for pointing that out.
|
|
|
3. Saps vs. Titans: Saps cannot break the titan wall.
Solution without new units: Increasing the tanks mobility would help, but honestly, I think the Saps unit selection inherently lacks in this area. I think we would have to either buff the artillery too much or change the nature of their units too much.
Solution with new units: The rocket launcher soldier https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oGw1yewauWPgQEn2NXgfX-yXVM_2LbjY-5hZ9yApNeE/edit?usp=sharing
4. Khraleans vs. Titans: They simply counter the titans too well.
Solution without new units: I love Waxoid's idea to lower wyrm's attack against heavy ground by one or two. I think that is more than fair considering their strength/price. I also think swarmer's attack against heavy ground should be reduced to 4 or even 3 (3 would still be fair in K. v S. if marauders mobility was decreased to 11).
Solution with new units: Other than the Juggernaut mentioned early to help against swarmers, I have not seen a great solution.
5. Khraleans vs Khraleans: one unit battles. Swarmers beat everything. I tell my low level friends to build all swarmers in their next K v K game and they always win even if the player is better than them and even if they don't use the extra gang up spots that make swarmers even more powerful. They dominate.
Solution without new units: By lowering their heavy ground mentioned earlier, you may open up the opportunity for pinzers and wyrms to make a presence.
Solution with new units: I designed a unit called the behemoth specifically with this problem in mind (same link as earlier)
Hope that helps Xavi! Thank again!
(I would love everyones comments on the new units google doc. I hope to keep revising it)
|
|
|
Thanks for opening this discussion Xavi. I think there are two different balance issues: 1. Unit strength/price vs. 2. Race vs. Race strength. I think these two issues should be addressed differently. If we try to address the latter category before the former, then we could further the problem and have to undo those changes later (i.e. The suggestion to lower the underling's unburied bonus would lower the strength/price of arguably the weakest primary unit).
In the First Category:
1. I think everyone agrees that the Sap Tank needs the biggest upgrade. Though increasing 1 defense would do the trick, I personally like the 12,13,14 between the races tank units. I would rather see it's mobility increased to ten. I could also see giving it 3 heal, but you definitely couldn't do both without raising the price.
2. The Eclipse is slightly too weak/price; however it is extremely powerful against the saps. We should therefore be very careful how we buff it and try to target it's increase against the Khral.
3. The swarmer is one of the strongest/price (it is the strongest in my opinion). It needs some lowered stats. There are again many ways to do this, but I will propose some in the second section.
4. The marauder is slightly over powered. I know many people will hate this suggestion, but lowering the marauders mobility to 11 would make it much more fair.
(quick note: if you disagree with me about marauders and swarmers, watch a high level saps vs sap or khral vs. Khral match up)
5. The battery is a difficult one to tell. It is very underplayed, but it's stats and abilities are amazing. I don't think we should make any adjustments to it until after the new units are introduced.
6. The wyrm is slightly overpowered. I think Geoff's suggestion is brilliant.
In the Second Category:
1. Titans on mid sized maps (these are not in order of importance): Titans struggle to expand or defend a spread out base layout.
Solution without new units: Nerf Marauders mobility to 11 and decrease swarmers defense or attack against heavy ground so speeders can beat swarmers if underlings aren't used in tandem.
Solution with new units: Juggernaut https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oGw1yewauWPgQEn2NXgfX-yXVM_2LbjY-5hZ9yApNeE/edit?usp=sharing
2. Titans on Large maps: Teleportation makes them unstoppable.
Possible solution: All titan units on cooldown receive one less sight.
To be continued... (please don't post. It will take me less than 30 minutes)
|
|
|
Simsverd,
I love your original ideas especially the salamander and hover tank.
I also like the idea of the predator drone; however, I think we should give all the races a unit that can detect invisibles and then remove the indicator numbers that have made burying almost pointless at high skill levels.
I also thought it would be cool to have a type of unit that couldn't heal as an action, but always healed at the round end even after taking an action
. This would probably be a kral unit, but it would make pairing it with an support unit(s) really fun.
|
![[Search]](/templates/default/images/icon_mini_search.gif){kind=icon}
![[Recent Topics]](/templates/default/images/icon_mini_recentTopics.gif){kind=icon}
![[Login]](/templates/default/images/icon_mini_login.gif){kind=icon}
Login
