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I'd personally love for the Guardian to have healing ability as well. In some regards, it does seem wrong that it's the only unit in the game that can't be healed.
With that said, I still think there are some issues that need to be worked out between the cost effectiveness of the blasters vs. the Tank, Plasma, and Pinzer. Right now, the blasters are much better for the money.
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The more I think about it, it probably would be better to hold off on adding more units until the balance is corrected although I understand the developers needing to make money as well.
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Kohtar wrote:I can tell that the SvS tourney quarter-final sees a lot of Fuzes... So they clearly find a spot in the sapiens strategy.
What maps are the games on? That would play some role as well. I still build Fuzes, but I don't find as many opportunities to use them as I would a Salamander or Mantisse.
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LkASr wrote:
simsverd wrote:
dr. pepper wrote:
All that means is that other changes are needed across the board to bring the whole game into balance.
no offence.. understanding balance require experience and skill.. way beyond my level (and definately yours). Im mostly coordinating the effort.. the most important discussions on balance is with top players (mostly the top rated moderators). The internal balance between the amphibious units does not affect the race balance much and thus have not been high on the priority. There will probably be tweaks to the amphibians later.
Balancing units is actually not as hard as you'd think. There are simple and complicated elements to each balancing factor, making an alternating current out of it can potentially have it a go.
This might not make sense, even to my own mind, but it'll show up soon enough for us
I totally disagree and the fact the developers have had to make so many unit adjustments is proof that balance is very tricky. And as you add each additional unit and have to consider balancing it against every other existing unit while considering each match-up and unit combinations, balancing becomes very difficult. Uniwar was fairly balanced prior to the introduction of the blasters and amphibians. The blasters have drastically changed the meta of this game. They've changed the balance between the races, and they've also made drastic changes to the most common unit compositions. I see far fewer tanks, plasma tanks, and pinzers than I did before and I've also noticed batteries are a lot more rare as well. Previously, you had to build GH to deal with GH. Now it's much better to build blasters, and you can do it more cost effectively.
Simsverd's comments about Sapiens being the strongest race right now also helped to shed additional light on why the developers nerfed both the bopper and fuze's aerial attack to 1 despite the fact that the Sapiens have fewer anti-air options than the other races. Despite their limited number of units, the developers must feel the Sapiens already deal with Khralean air easily enough. I am also starting to notice that I am able to win more SvT matchups vs. higher rated players and also struggle to win vs. equally rated players when I'm Titans vs. Sapiens.
From what I can tell currently, here's what I see (in order of worst imbalance to least)...
T>K
S>T
S>K
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Duaneski wrote:Dr Pepper - reply to your post immediately above this....
Yes. I agree. But we have been doing literally that same thing for the swarmer for years. Granted a aerial defense of 4 is better than amphibious armor of 2-5... but their damage is very similar. It's essentially the same principle, in my book. And honestly, you can probably get more damage per credit out of a Fuze than a swarmer on most maps anyway 
(Does the swarmer need a buff? I think yes. Does the Fuze - I think no honestly. I would be good with a mantisse nerf though)
A Mantisse nerf accomplishes the same thing assuming it's nerfed appropriately (bridge the gap between the fuse and mantisse).
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simsverd wrote:
dr. pepper wrote:
All that means is that other changes are needed across the board to bring the whole game into balance.
no offence.. understanding balance require experience and skill.. way beyond my level (and definately yours). Im mostly coordinating the effort.. the most important discussions on balance is with top players (mostly the top rated moderators). The internal balance between the amphibious units does not affect the race balance much and thus have not been high on the priority. There will probably be tweaks to the amphibians later.
I'm definitely not proposing to be a top level player who understands all intricacies of balancing this game, but I can confidently tell you the Fuze is underpowered compared to the other amphibious units after a cursory look at the statistics. And I can also see that amphibious units don't play a huge role in balance since they don't make a lot of sense on a majority of maps that don't involve a lot of reefs and swamps.
Assuming the balance wasn't too far off prior to the addition new units, it's process of elimination to identify that it was either the blaster units or a combination of the blaster + amphibious units that caused the imbalance. If Sapiens are consistently mopping up at the highest levels of play, the bopper probably has a lot to do with it. Although I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the maps and whether or not there are a lot of well placed forest and mountain tiles, which make the blasters even better.
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simsverd wrote:
dr. pepper wrote:As it stands now, you'd have to nerf the salamander and Mantisse to bring better balance between the three units. I think the Fuze should be buffed in a unique way to make it stand out against the others. I like move after attack personally.
Balancing units not limited to a comparison between units in the same class.. you have to look at the bigger picture here.. Sap is the dominant race now, and buffing the fuze makes no sense.
We will consider changes to the amphibious units, but currently there are other changes we have higher up on the "list".. for example swarmer buff
All that means is that other changes are needed across the board to bring the whole game into balance. Simply stating that Sapiens are winning the most while ignoring an imbalance within a class isn't right although I can see bringing the whole game into balance is most important.
I guess that's why Bopper and Fuze lost their anti-air. If I'm correct in assuming the Fuze is relatively weak, it would have to mean that the Bopper's impact has been the most drastic and caused the most imbalance. Balance is very tricky across three races when adding so many new units and maps into the equation.
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Duaneski wrote:
dr. pepper wrote:
Duaneski wrote:I've gotten great mileage out of Fuze in this matchup. In addition to killing my opponents marauders and marines, I also killed a wayward red marauder.
Those two Fuze have provided free damage so far and have definitely earned their value back. (The terrain is good and my opp hasn't countered w heli or tank. So that's helped 
(Just to say, they're far from useless )
I never said it's useless. I said it's underpowered when when compared to other amphibian units. You also just pointed out your opponent isn't countering it. Plus the best unit to counter it seems to be either a marine or a marauder. A heli or tank isn't even necessary.
Okay. I see what you mean.
Yes. If you let them get attacked, literally any unit counters them. This was true of swarmers for a long time. The key to using a Fuze or mantisse efficiently is not letting it get attacked. It's kind of like a flexible ish boarfly without the GH bang.
You're looking to put out free spot damage without retaliation.. so having something in front of them (marauder and marine is fine) is necessary.
I mentioned helis and tanks as counters because they won't take any damage (or one at most) from my Fuze - rendering them terribly inefficient in the short term.
I get it. Protect ranged units. It's one thing to protect a guardian that's going to dish out 4-6 damage to a GH. What is a Fuze going to do? 4-6 damage on a GL. Big deal. I can easily get that by buying 2 marines. It does nothing to GH, nothing to aerial, nothing to aquatic and it's weak vs. other amphibians. Why would I buy it compared to other options which are better?
I purchase Salamader and Mantisse when appropriate in swamps because their stats + the bonuses make it worth it. A Fuze on a swamp is still bad (compared to 200 credits spent elsewhere).
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Kohtar wrote:After playing a while with new units I feel that khrals are still behind, especially against sapiens. The reason is not the khrals new units, which are now fine. The reason is that the only khral unit able to defend properly against the marauder is the pinzer (which was the best tank in the game) and the pinzer is now way harder to use because of the bopper. Being the only race without a harassment unit they badly need a good defensive unit. Neither borfly nor salamander fits the bill.
This is way worse vs. Titans where mechas, speeders, and assimilators run over most Khraleans units. If they add Pinzer, buy a guardian.
Swarmers do better against Marauders and Marines than they do against speeders and mechas.
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LkASr wrote:
dr. pepper wrote:I've gotten to use the Salamander more, and I must say it's very effective and trades well with most 250 credit units especially when it's in a swamp.
Just reinforces my opinion that the Fuze is by far the weakest of the three amphibian units.
The only thing that made you think of it is that its aerial power was nerfed badly. It was great when it had that.
It was a combination of two nerfs (mobility + aerial attack) combined with using it a lot (and then repeatedly dying to anything) and boosts to the salamander.
Additionally, I was frustrated that both the bopper and Fuze got nerfed to 1 aerial limiting sapiens anti-air options (I addressed this in another thread).
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As it stands now, you'd have to nerf the salamander and Mantisse to bring better balance between the three units. I think the Fuze should be buffed in a unique way to make it stand out against the others. I like move after attack personally.
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Duaneski wrote:I've gotten great mileage out of Fuze in this matchup. In addition to killing my opponents marauders and marines, I also killed a wayward red marauder.
Those two Fuze have provided free damage so far and have definitely earned their value back. (The terrain is good and my opp hasn't countered w heli or tank. So that's helped
(Just to say, they're far from useless )
I never said it's useless. I said it's underpowered when when compared to other amphibian units. You also just pointed out your opponent isn't countering it. Plus the best unit to counter it seems to be either a marine or a marauder. A heli or tank isn't even necessary.
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I've gotten to use the Salamander more, and I must say it's very effective and trades well with most 250 credit units especially when it's in a swamp.
Just reinforces my opinion that the Fuze is by far the weakest of the three amphibian units.
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LkASr wrote:ah
well, let's just wait, I just let xavi go through his stuff, the new units and tiles are more than enough within the course of a few months
We're all waiting. I was just asking if there was a timeline
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This is a historical document listing all the balance changes, which is great. I'm asking when* new balance changes and/or new units will be implemented.
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