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Thank you everyone for your input. It seems like we all agree that +1 or +2 G.L. would serve the Swarmer well. I will give Xavi my best recommendation on this.
I have a concern I would appreciate being discussed.
With added team play, I am noticing that mecha expansion is in many team maps is unstoppable. Currently, if you are playing team ranked and don't have a titan, I believe you will loose 33% immediately due to maps. Let's brainstorm a solution. The only solution I have heard that I like is to reduce the Mecha's sight while he is disabled. This would dramatically slow down the titans rate of expansion, right? This would also help cut down extra "undo exploration" from the titans. Please discuss pros and cons?
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simsverd wrote:@Duaneski: There are high level discussions also that dont reach the forums... and sometimes i am tempted to do this as a google docs discussion with all 2000+ players that want to participate
...but since i am not the one in charge i am merely being grumphy here at the forum. Kroeger is organizing the discussions and the devs have the final say.
Sims,
Anytime you have an idea, feel free to google chat me on it. In this case, I would love it if you made a google doc and invited whoever you want. (It might be nice if you give me the privileges to invite others as well just in case I think of someone you don't.)
Also, I like the idea of the 2000 point cap. I will set those limits on future threads. I think that will help.
@Apercent: as you continue to master this game, you will find that your score will reflect your understanding. I hope that you will reach 2000 by the next balance discussion.
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Interesting thoughts. Xavi already has some changes planned, but I think this would be good if they don't work
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The discussion for a new balance update is now open.
Please remember to back up your opinions with high level tournament game examples.
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I also like 1&2 while disliking/fearing 3
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Apercent wrote: As for "common scenario". I just said that you have a 4.2% chance of that happening. Do you call that common?
You are miscalculating somewhere or misunderstanding me. Old Swarmer (+1 Gh) + 3 Gangup bonus had a 22% chance of doing 3 damage to a plasma on a base and it was a very common scenario.
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Changes for this balance update :
Marauder - 1 GL (designed to prevent the marauder from stopping a cap attempt by itself)
Pinzer +1 air (Prevents multiple helicopters from killing a pinzer without taking any damage, but still allows the helicopter to counter the pinzer.)
Wyrm +1 air (Not intended for KvS since most agree this will not make much difference. Designed to encourage more usage of wyrms in KvK. This will indirectly encouraging usage of underling which will encourage cap attempts which has been almost nonexistent in high level KvK match ups.)
We are also applying the first wave of vision updates:
Marauder - 1
Tank - 1
Helicopter - 1
Destroyer - 2
Speeder - 1
Pinzer - 1
Garuda - 1
Leviathan - 3
These changes are final for this update and will be implemented in the next few days. I know many, like me, are sad that the swarmer was not able to be fixed in this update, but it will likely be our main priority for the next update. Since this update is smaller, we will not wait as long before discussion begins on the next balance update. Discussion for the next update will begin about a month from now on the 1st of April.
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Apercent wrote: Firstly, when has a swarmer ever done 3 vs a plasma?
In my article, I spell out that swarmers can often do 3 to a plasma if they are on a base. It is a common scenario for the Khral to use their mobility to force a titan player to build a plasma on a base at the last second. A good Khral player would then use swarmers and underlings to get that plasma to an inefficient level of health rendering 500 credits almost useless.
The bottom line is that the swarmers ground heavy will not be restored until it is shown that Titans continue to win in high-level matches against Kral. Right now zero evidence for this has been revealed.
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Apercent wrote:To all of those who think the walker will not be able to shoot outside of its vision
See how I have the option to attack them even though I can't see them? (BTW there is 3 underlings over there)
I already know what your thinking, "walkers can't move and attack! The wyrm could move and attack, which is why it could do that. It's vision updated when it moved, which is why it could attack!"
No, its vision hasn't updated. Look at the pic, it still can't see the underlings. But it can still attack them. The same will apply to walkers.
This problem will be fixed by the time of the second vision balance patch, if not sooner.
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I presented your idea to the devs and they like it. You have convinced us it is worth considering. However, right now we are not in a place to implement changes like this. We will re-entertain this idea when we introduce the new units (sadly, we are still a ways off from this). Thank you for offering it. It would make it easier to balance uniwar.
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^^^ is copy and pasted from a more official document. I would love your opinions.
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In the most recent balance update, the swarmer’s nerf left the swarmer lacking. Most high level players agree that the defense drop of the swarmer should be kept, but there is more debate on the swarmer’s attack stats. As we explore rebuffing the Swarmer we need to consider these things.
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In Sapiens vs Khraleans, most players agree that restoring the swarmer’s GH would be a good move. This would allow the swarmer to stand up a little stronger against the marauder. This would not positively or negatively affect the swarmer’s interaction with the tank or battery since they seldom interact with each other. Because of this, restoring GH to the swarmer in this matchup would improve this matchup.
In Khraleans vs Titans, restoring the swarmer’s GH would have some significant negative effects. Since the swarmer is the ultimate gangup unit, it would again be able to commonly do 2 damage to a plasma (3 at times if on a base), 3 damage to eclipses without gangup (5 damage with) and often initiate against a speeder with 4 damage. The swarmer was key for the Khral to crush the titans. Since the titan’s mobility makes it difficult for the titans to get a good first hit and the swarmer’s range allows it to be shielded at times, the swarmer’s decrease in defense would not be effective enough to balance this matchup. I fear this will significantly hurt the balance of this match up. Since the update, after looking at dozens of matchups, I have only found one high level player that did not win both games in a mirrored KvT matchup (ChnZero and Grevi in the January Tournament) and in that matchup, Khral won both games. Titans might have an advantage, but it is slight and I fear restoring the Swarmer’s GH would throw this matchup out of balance.
In Khraleans vs Khraleans, we were trying to make the Pinzer and wyrm counter the swarmer. Even with 3 stats in the pinzer’s favor, it still struggles to counter the swarmer and the swarmer still dominates as almost one half of the units built in this match up. We are trying for this because if Pinzer’s and Wyrm could be introduced to counter the swarmer in KvK, then underlings would appear to counter the pinzer’s and wyrm. This would create a broad circle as swarmers and garudas obviously counter underlings. Restoring the GH to the swarmer would have a significant negative impact on the swarmer’s interactions with the Pinzer and Wyrm. Restoring GH is not a good option for this matchup as it would reverse progress in this matchup.
In conclusion, I think we should try and find solutions to the swarmer and KvS problems in other areas. Here are some possible options:
Swarmer +1 or even +2 G.L. (can not go to 10). This would let two swarmers always break a cap (marauder’s and speeders can always do this). This would also help swarmer get a better initiate on infantry units.
Swarmer +1 mobility. This would allow swarmers to navigate around bases like they do elsewhere.
Please leave your thoughts and more suggestions in the forum if you have them.
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I just did a move in one of my games were I was able to use a 4 hp marauder to kill a 5 hp underling... That is just not right lol
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StarryBlink wrote:Please don't nerf marauder anymore. It's got enough nerf  -1 its G.L. then you'll see infantry running hunt for jeep instead. That's not right.
First, the Marauder is still one of the most powerful per credit unit in the game (if not the most powerful). Look at any high level game in any tournament with any race match up including Saps for reference.
Second, the Marauder can hit and run and amass crazy gang up bonuses. -1 G.L. will not affect much other than stopping cap attempts... which is the point. Not even 500+ units have even 1 of these 3 amazing and unique abilities (hit and run (4 spaces), give itself a gang up bonus & solo stop a cap attempt). I think - 1 G.L. will have to happen eventually to limit this third ability to a rare occurrence (25-33% chance).
Third, the Marauder would still be able to kill in 1 round any infantry without terrain bonus. That doesn't sound like "infantry running hunt for jeeps" to me. No other units in the game can do this. It is so powerful!
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Here are some possible option packages. Options 1 and 2 are based on your feedback. Other options are based on feedback outside of this forum that I wanted to be discussed. Of course there are multiple ways of fixing the problem.
Option 1:
Swarmer +1 G.H & + 1 G.L
Eclipse +1 air or + 1 Def (I added this because the eclipse was the #2 most underpowered unit (2nd to the tank) before the update. We made no changes because the swarmer had such a strong nerf. The eclipse has remained slightly underpowered and would need some kind of buff to accompany a swarmer increase in G.H.)
Wyrm +1 air
Pinzer +1 air
Option 2 (smaller update):
Pick 2 of the following and wait to see how much it affects KvS before making more changes:
Swarmer +1 G.L.
Pinzer +1 air
Wyrm +1 air
Option 3 (this idea is based on the idea that secondary units are over used):
Marauder -1 G.L. (this would make it very hard for marauders to solo a capping underling or marine and make it impossible to solo a capping mecha) (this would also help KvS)
Speeder -1 G.L. or -1 air
Swarmer +1 G.L.
Option 4:
Marine -1 air (this was originally offered by Unikz. I hated the idea at first, but I have started to wonder it it would be a good thing after all. We want to avoid spamming 1 type of unit and marines are often spammed).
Option 5:
Helicopter - 1 G.H.
Battery + 1 G.H.
I do not think this idea would fix the problem, but it might have something to offer since Helicopters are very powerful. Maybe this idea will generate other great ideas.
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