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So today, I had a random ranked game on a sea map, called "TheMorningOnTheOceanZZD", that reminded me how useless Fuze is, even against naval units.
I'm Sapiens, my opponent is Titans, and right out of the gate he saves and builds a Hydronaut. He was P2, so naturally he had a credit advantage, coupled with the fact that I'd already spent my first turn credits on a marauder and a Marine. The marauder runs across the map on turn two, to find empty bases (3). Knowing a Hydronaut is coming, I build two fuzes, one on my sea base and another about 5 tiles away on my nearest land base.
The next turn, my opponent's Hydronaut moves into position 4 tiles form my Fuze (still on my naval base) and deals 9 damage to my fuze. Keep in mind, this was on +2/+2 terrain for my fuze. Seems broken to me.
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Borflies are the weakest of the blaster units. If you get emotional about borflies, just wait until you fight your first bopper spammer.
That being said, titans are the best race to be able to deal with them because *every* unit you could make (except assimilators of course) can attack air units. Just give them a hug and they disappear.
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Fuze sucks, use marines.
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Pento wrote:
But still fuze is useless and the balance would be fine/the same as well if the Sapiens wouldn't have the fuze and T / K would have salamander and Mantisse.
It's so easy to kill fuze, even easier than killing a marine.
THIS.
If the only reasoning the "board" will consider is based on balance, then consider this.
SvT- Speeders (and eclipses) OWN fuzes, in addition to having mantisse for an apples to apples counter. Additionally, the titan's general defense advantage (mechas, plasma tanks, speeders) further trivializes the damage of the fuze.
-In most SvT matches where I'm the titan player, I'll spam at least 3 speeders to start a match, whether or not my sapien opponent is using fuze.
SvK- Fuze is useless because they do trivial damage to air units. Yes, a smart K player will use salamanders on an appropriate map, but I'm sorry, marines are just a better. Half price, same damage, more valuable.
-9 of 10 SvK matches are air fights won by whoever got the jump on air production.
SvS- Simply put, I'll just spend +50 credits on a marauder, thanks.
Fuze are a cheap naval unit able to cap bases, THAT'S IT, and it doesn't take a "high ranked player" that actually plays the game to see that.
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I have to agree with Drpepper here. Fuzes are worthless. Offensively, they are no better than marines (zero damage to tanks, minimal damage to air units, especially helicopters), and I would even argue their lack of utility against naval units.
When I play sapiens, even on naval maps, I do not use them at all. They only deal ANY damage AT ALL to ANYTHING except infantry with GUB *and* +2/+2 terrain. Too situational to warrant the cost, and 9 out of 10 scenarios dictate that marines are simply a better choice.
Mantisse doesn't permform much better, but Titan's lack of mobility in general makes the mantisse a more desired unit.
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I'm losing more games now with Titans than I was before. I was able to cope with lack of mobility by turtling before, but blasters have made turtling impossible. Sure I could build guardians, but I shouldn't have to... and if I do, I lose them due to being unable to protect them.
Every time a random ranked game starts, and I'm titans, the temptation to surrender on turn 1 crosses my mind, but I usually wait until the first bopper/borfly hits the field.
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dr. pepper wrote:Borfly's actually do the most base damage to heavy ground with a piercing value of 50% and damage of 6 (the devs have previously hinted at nerfing their GH attack). Compare that to the Bopper with a piercing value of 30% and damage of 5 or the Guardian with a piercing value of 45% and damage of 5. After terrain bonuses, I'm assuming the Guardian does slightly more damage with 45% / 7 (I said assuming because I don't have all the math down but it seems to be that way from experience).
They're just limited by their inability to move and then attack and their inability to defend themselves at melee range.
I think you're failing to factor in terrain bonus when comparing the damage of the three units. You also fail to compensate for the borfly's lack of mobility, and I think attack before move is a bigger disadvantage in comparison than you make it out to be.
Look at the current meta.
KvK doesn't use borflies at all, because it's always an airborn battle.
KvT can use borflies, but borflies are far too vulnerable to every single having air attacks.
KvS is marginally useful vs tanks since they cannot shoot back, but marauders and helicopters are hard counters to a unit that has to attack before it moves.
Compared to a unit that can jump forward up to three tiles THEN attack for the same damage? There's just no comparison imho, again considering current metas.
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LkASr wrote:I mean guys, I don't want anyone of us just argue our way to no avail, but not like we should go for just one thing. We could think of something else besides Tank or Blaster units.
Why not have the blasters get 1-2 range while either reducing their cost or increase their mobility in return. That's my another 2 cents, anyone agree to this?
Or perhaps give Bopper bury/camouflage while allow Borfly to attack after move and retain move after attack upon range nerf.
I thought the point of this thread was to find a solution to the damage of blasters (being too powerful). Your post sounds like you want to improve them even further...not the direction we want to go.
Blaster units do too much damage to tanks when factoring in terrain bonus. Borflies aren't as bad, because they attack then move, AND they do not gain terrain bonuses... but Borflies certainly aren't a 1 unit army that can kill anything like Guardians. The simplest solution is to slightly reduce the attack power to most all unit types, and completely remove the guardian's ability to hit air units (*every* other Titan unit can, so they don't need it).
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simsverd wrote:we are discussing the tanks.. buffing defence is an option, but also lowering cost by 50 each is another. They still are usefull in a mix vs the light and medium units.
Its a wanted effect with less buildup/defence and faster action/result - which might be seen as a paradigmshift regarding the tanks..
No, buffing tank defense is NOT the answer. Then all other units will do nothing to tanks, even worse than the -1 I'm lucky to get with amphibians or light ground units if I'm standing on *perfect* terrain. A larger balancing act would ensue, of needing to increase other unit's attack power vs heavy ground units.
The solution is simple.... blaster units themselves need to be nerfed. It's too much of a crutch that 2-3 shots *EVERY* every other unit on the field. I can understand being a counter to 2 or even 3 types of units, but not ALL of them.
You shouldn't need a tank or a blaster to kill a tank. An army of strategically placed units should still be able to do the job, 1-2 damage at a time.
You shouldn't need blaster units to win against an opponent that is using them.
Oh, and for the love of god, *please* give Titan's tanks 2 regen.... it really is annoying to watch your health slip away while 1 single tank out-heals you while it blocks your path.
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I've been playing with the blaster units, but I don't own the guardian yet. I have all three amphibian units, and the S/K blasters. I definitely agree that when opposed by a field full of blasters, tanks become useless. I also believe that blasters have left Eclipses in the dust, because Eclipses are now used strictly for anti-air, despite being strong against amphibian and light ground units themselves.... why not use blasters when they cost half as much?
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Map Name: Themorningbefroepad
Author: 76patriot76
Size: 10x11
Reason for down-voting:
If player 1 is Sapiens and player 2 is Titans, the corner bases require three turns for a Mecha to cap the corner bases, while it only takes 2 for the other races. I lost a ranked game on this map where the Sapien player blazed a marauder across the map and gained a crippling advantage by completely preventing me from being able to cap one of my corner bases.
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