New races for better game balance

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Agree	57%	[ 4 ]
Disagree	43%	[ 3 ]
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Apr 19, 2012 13:24

Subject: New races for better game balance

STOLEN MOJO

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Joined: Apr 19, 2012,
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As much as I enjoy this game, it really needs more races for better game balance.

Apr 19, 2012 14:48

Subject: Re:New races for better game balance

simsverd

Messages: 921,
Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
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Why do you think so?

Please tell what is imbalanced today...
...and how will a new race can fix it...

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Apr 19, 2012 16:40

Subject: Re:New races for better game balance

droidfreak36

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Joined: Jan 23, 2012,
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Here's an imbalance I've noticed recently, though maybe it's just me. On many maps, maps where all the bases are owned by one team or the other, Titans can easily win, because they have heavy hard-to-kill units that can defend (Plasma, Eclipse, Speeder) and once they build Walkers they can press the attack. On the other hand, maps that have a lot of unclaimed bases often go to Khraleans because Khraleans have the fastest infantry and are great at rush tactics. Sapiens are somewhere in the middle, with the fastest vehicle in the game and the strongest air unit but neither the strongest units nor the fastest in general.

Honestly, I don't think the current race balance is too far off-kilter in general, it's just a factor of the intrinsic nature of each race. To make it more fair, follow each rated match with a rematch where the players switch race and starting position. That way if the match is decided by race or map imbalance each player will get one win and one loss.

Adding new races won't make the game any more balanced, it will just add more factors that need to be balanced. Currently there are 3 combos that need to be balanced (KS, TK, and ST), adding a new race would add 3 more combos (XK, XS, and XT where new race is "X") and therefore double the number of factors to be balanced.

DroidFreak, the roboticist who plays as Khrals.

(Or Titans now that I realize how legit they are)

Apr 20, 2012 09:35

Subject: Re:New races for better game balance

Toss

Messages: 35,
Joined: Jan 26, 2012,
Location: Poland, Poznan
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simsverd wrote: Why do you think so?

Please tell what is imbalanced today...
...and how will a new race can fix it...

I agree that adding a new race now would be a mistake but You really think that simply changing the prices of units will balance the 3 races? Whats imbalanced.. Titans in most TvS games.
Why?
On big maps what Sap player should do vs them? Early rush? You think that two marauders can break through eclipses or (the horror) eclipse and a plasma? So what that Titans are less mobile if they can build one unit and defend for ages, building up more plasmas, walkers, eclipses and move out slowly. How that's balanced? If Sap player will defend and also build up, the walkers supported by plasmas out front will crush everything.. helis? Pff.. eclipses with walkers ripps their asses.
So think for yourself - this is balance?
Cheers..

Apr 20, 2012 10:27

Subject: Re:New races for better game balance

simsverd

Messages: 921,
Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
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Actually i think the game is fairly balanced.

At least on small and medium sized maps. You are right that titans vs saps usually wins on big maps, but id rather say that the map isnt made good enough by the map creator. This can be avoided in good map making.

Adding more races is definately not going to make it easier to balance tha game....

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Apr 20, 2012 12:00

Subject: Re:New races for better game balance

Toss

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Joined: Jan 26, 2012,
Location: Poland, Poznan
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True.. its not the worse balance I saw in a strategy, but instead of adding a fourth race the developers should really add new units. I know they want to do it, and I really hope that Saps will get a dropship.. or their tank will get a boost, because at this moment Saps need at least three tanks to kill plasma in two turns! That's 1200 credits vs 500! Damn.. I really want to pay for the tank 500 but let it be really worth it. Next thing are those walkers.. really, Saps should get a stealth commando which can plant c4 on those bastards, or at lest something like that.

Also upgrades would change the balance of the game.. for example if there would be the armor and weapons upgrade and Tan player would 'turtle up', the Saps could tech up in this time.. after that Tans would have a hard time pounding on those +3 tanks with +0 / +1 weapons.
Cheers!

Apr 20, 2012 17:17

Subject: Re:New races for better game balance

yemrot

Messages: 27,
Joined: Nov 11, 2011,
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i dont think the game is truly "balanced" as you put it, when i play someone with equal skill to mine it seems that titans always beat saps; saps beat khrals; khrals beat titans. no matter who has who. while i welcome a challenge, and the outcome is not set in stone, i would say the above outcome happens 90% of the time. While I think adding a new race may not change the balance of the game, I would welcome it solely for the change of pace. Don't get me wrong, I think uniwar is the best turn based game out there by far, and I can't seem to get enough, but the developers have done such a good job already, I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem fitting a new race into the game without screwing it up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Apr 20, 2012 17:18

Apr 20, 2012 18:25

Subject: Re:New races for better game balance

xEPSILON9x

Messages: 11,
Joined: Mar 08, 2012,
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(This is something I posted on a similar thread, it just works here too. See "If a new race had to be added..." or "New Races" for more Info.)

I'd honestly like to have both the Rogues and the Aliens. They both sound like cool additions, and 5 races would probably be easier to balance out then 4. (At least I would think so.) With 5 races it could be a system where each race is more advantaged against 2 races, and is more disadvantaged against the other two. The same situation would apply to the conversion of units. This could also be done without changing the balance of the original 3, which I don't see happening with 4 races. Anyway this is roughly how I think it would work:

~Sapiens~
[Advantages]
•Sapiens = Sapiens
•Sapiens > Khraleans
•Sapiens < Titans
•Sapiens > Rogues
•Sapiens < Aliens
[Conversions]
•Sapiens < Khraleans (Infect)
•Sapiens > Titans (Reprogram)
•Sapiens < Rogues (Bribe)
•Sapiens > Aliens (Recruit)
~Khraleans~
[Advantages]
•Khraleans < Sapiens
•Khraleans = Khraleans
•Khraleans > Titans
•Khraleans < Rogues
•Khraleans > Aliens
[Conversions]
•Khraleans > Sapiens (Infect)
•Khraleans < Titans (Assimilate)
•Khraleans > Rogues (Infect)
•Khraleans < Aliens (???)
~Titans~
[Advantages]
•Titans > Sapiens
•Titans < Khraleans
•Titans = Titans
•Titans < Rogues
•Titans > Aliens
[Conversions]
•Titans < Sapiens (Reprogram)
•Titans > Khraleans (Assimilate)
•Titans > Rogues (Hire)
•Titans < Aliens (Reassemble)
~Rogues~
[Advantages]
•Rogues < Sapiens
•Rogues > Khraleans
•Rogues >Titans
•Rogues = Rogues
•Rogues > Aliens
[Conversions]
•Rogues > Sapiens (Bribe)
•Rogues < Khraleans (Infect)
•Rogues < Titans (Hire)
•Rogues > Aliens (???)
~Aliens~
[Advantages]
•Aliens > Sapiens
•Aliens < Khraleans
•Aliens < Titans
•Aliens > Rogues
•Aliens = Aliens
[Conversions]
•Aliens < Sapiens (Recruit)
•Aliens > Khraleans (???)
•Aliens > Titans (Reassemble)
•Aliens < Rogues (???)

I haven't worked out many details, but I hope you get the basics of what I'm saying.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Apr 20, 2012 18:28

The time we kill keeps us alive. - Rise Against

Apr 20, 2012 18:33

Subject: Re:New races for better game balance

xEPSILON9x

Messages: 11,
Joined: Mar 08, 2012,
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There is also talk of new units for the existing races. Maybe that could even it out a little.

See "Six New Units To Be Created. We Need Your Ideas!" for details

The time we kill keeps us alive. - Rise Against

Apr 21, 2012 00:58

Subject: Re:New races for better game balance

simsverd

Messages: 921,
Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
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Understanding balance in this game takes a long time and many games played with different races, matchups and maps.

Adding more complexity to the game either by new race or new units is something that will affect the game balance in a very big way, and takes much testing to be right...
I fail to understand how this will be any easier than adjusting stats on current units/reaces.

And i still feel the game is fairly balanced for most maps/matchups. For your info.. the devs sometimes uses statistical data on win/loss to balance the races.

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Apr 21, 2012 06:46

Subject: Re:New races for better game balance

droidfreak36

Messages: 183,
Joined: Jan 23, 2012,
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It seems like the argument for more races and the discussion of balance belong in two different threads, because as I mentioned before adding new races is not a help to balance. Adding new races may make the game more interesting, which is certainly a plus, but it won't improve balance. If the devs had really wanted a balanced game, they would have made only one race because mirrored play is always balanced. Instead they made 3 races that are adept at different aspects of warfare, making it much more interesting and fun.
I think that to balance the races completely you would have to make them all basically the same, which would remove the fun that comes from playing different races. Instead a rematch system would allow the races to be slightly imbalanced without imbalancing the game as a whole. See "Harcore ladder" for discussion about a fair ladder system unaffected by race and/or map imbalances.

DroidFreak, the roboticist who plays as Khrals.

(Or Titans now that I realize how legit they are)

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