New maps in ranked

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May 02, 2012 09:57

Subject: New maps in ranked

TigBitties

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To start let me state the following is in regards to ranked random games, which I consider the true game of Uniwar. It may also apply to games that are pre-made by players, but those have always had inherent unfairness and I dont bother with them personally so I wont address that.

While I love the variety that all the new maps have added to this game, a lot of them end up being quite unbalanced. Many of them have large amounts of unclaimed bases (often in reach of both sides), which focuses gameplay on a rush to capture them. This gives great advantage to the 1st player, and also accentuates both an advantage and disadvantage of the titan race - Teleporting becomes overpowered on some maps, and on others where travel distances are short the slow walk speed of mechs can mean game over.

I like that you guys added a vote thing after the game is done to say if you liked the map/matchup, but I did notice some of the maps I feel are unbalanced don't even have the vote. Does that mean those maps are already considered to be fair? Will you eventually weed out some of the voted down maps?

If this unbalance continues on I can see what will happen: everyone will notice that going 2nd is too big a disadvantage, and turn off "available to random games". With no one available random games will dry up and die off. I don't know that statistics, but I feel that random games make up a significant portion of this game, and to many players random is all that they like to play.

May 03, 2012 10:55

Subject: Re:New maps in ranked

waxoid

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Serious issue, and underscores the importance of getting some improved rating of maps *for balance* into the random ranked system. I agree with erring on the side of including maps (for fun) but we need to have a path for getting toward more balance in random ranked or the system gets too frustrating over time and the fun gets sapped.

Plus, a reminder to map makers – it really is easy to screw up opening balance with open bases, for the reasons Tig outlines. Please test a bunch, especially the effect of marauders, ant mobility, and teleport. In fact *usually maps which provide open bases in range of both players are broken*. Getting it right is the minority. Think about making great maps that don't involve a scramble for bases that both can get to. The core of what's cool about uniwar doesn't require that setup.

May 03, 2012 12:23

Subject: Re:New maps in ranked

simsverd

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i agree to this 100%

It has been discussed with the devs, and there will probably come adjustments to how maps become rated in the future.
(hopefully sooner than later)

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May 04, 2012 11:57

Subject: Re:New maps in ranked

talone

Messages: 566,
Joined: Aug 02, 2010,
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I like ALL new random maps. I am happy that now we have about 150 new random maps. It is very fun!
Balanced or unbalanced it is hard to say even for me. Interest - the main point. So ve should do everything to multiple new random maps. I dream about 1000 random maps.

Who loves UniWar and wants seriously study the UniWar secrets and tactics - email me

May 04, 2012 12:01

Subject: Re:New maps in ranked

talone

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The problem of unbalanced map is SIMPLE can be solved so:

EACH ROUND CONSISTS OF 2 GAMES:
- a pseudo random generated one (see point 2)
- a rematch (the same opponents on the same map switch sides, the one who started the first game is second to go in the rematch)

Points awards
- The one who wins the 2 games gets points
- In case of 1 to 1 result the one who won with less turns gets points
- In case of 1 to 1 result and both games finished in the same number of turns no one gets points (draw)

Who loves UniWar and wants seriously study the UniWar secrets and tactics - email me

May 04, 2012 15:41

Subject: Re:New maps in ranked

Cpt Hawaiian

Messages: 199,
Joined: Sep 12, 2010,
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In addition to poor maps being thumbs-upped, really good maps get thumbs-downed by crappy players who don't understand the game well. For example, Sims "Speed Arena" is really awesome in my opinion but has several thumbs downs. It is a map that requires real skill in the game and newbies will get destroyed on it, but a great map for advanced players.

We have also discussed several ideas with the devs regarding implementing a weighted system for votes being more valuable from high ranked players, so hopefully we will see these implementations soon. They will happen, we just don't know the exact timeline yet.

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MODERATOR has spoken.

May 04, 2012 15:44

Subject: Re:New maps in ranked

Cpt Hawaiian

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Also Tig and Waxoid, that is a good point regarding balance and open bases. In fact, it's one big reason the speeder movement was buffed because of certain maps like butterfly and peanut-something where titans really had a disadvantage at the beginning, especially to khrals. It may be worth putting that in the game notes that are accessed in game design. I will see if we can at least put some info on map design regarding that issue.

-------------------- ------

Okay, so we are adding this text to the map editor info screen either in this update or the next update. It won't solve the voting issue, but at least it will help newbies be aware:

Neutral Bases and Game Balance

Keep in mind that designing neutral bases between opponents that players must rush to steal at the beginning of a match requires careful thought so as not to give the first player an unfair advantage, or a certain race an advantage. Main considerations include:

*remember, the first player moves first! So the second player should at least be able to provide resistance or have an adequate chance of preventing the first player from stealing a neutral base between them.
*the movement values of each race’s infantry are very different. The order from fastest to slowest is: underling, marine, mecha. Make sure to test your map to ensure that no race has an unfair advantage in merely reaching a base before another race can even try to prevent it. (for example, an underling can traverse over two plains to land on a base and try to steal it in just one turn, whereas marines and mechas could not)
*titans can warp to far away locations and control those areas quickly, so if there are neutral bases in those locations then khrals and sapien players should at least be able to protect those areas before a titan can steal a neutral base with no resistance

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at May 04, 2012 20:25

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MODERATOR has spoken.

May 05, 2012 16:19

Subject: Re:New maps in ranked

waxoid

Messages: 442,
Joined: Aug 07, 2010,
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Thanks Cpt, every bit helps. I would mention marauders too – they're what break Sap vs. Khral on Scramble, for example. The two movements mean a single marauder can eliminate an enemy capturer in one turn, and the double movement also means they are extremely good at blocking.

May 06, 2012 00:11

Subject: Re:New maps in ranked

talone

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Joined: Aug 02, 2010,
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in scramble khral win sap easily

Who loves UniWar and wants seriously study the UniWar secrets and tactics - email me

May 06, 2012 05:38

Subject: Re:New maps in ranked

Fool

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Joined: Mar 10, 2012,
Location: England
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Can i just add my thoughts.
I'm inclined to be wary of the notion of weighting peoples votes based on their rating. As a notably "casual" player I don't think my opinion is less valid than that of the "hardcore" just because I'm not as good at the game. I recognise that my understanding of the fundamentals may be less deep but equally i imagine there are a lot more people who approach the game as fun way to pass the time than as a challenge to be mastered.
I understand this is not exactly what your saying but if the rating system is based on a democratic approach (i.e. how many people say what) then there may have to be some recognition that many, perhaps even a majority, of people are not the elite. If newbies are getting destroyed on a map and so rating it poorly and you have a high ratio of newbies to elites then the map is going to get scored poorly.
I must admit im assuming that the population of the game follows a fairly standard curve for "skill level" but that seems to me pretty reasonable. In order to give the higher ranked players more "weight" for their opinions you would surely have to skew things so much that you might as well change the system so you can only rate a map if you have a score over a certain amount?
I'm not having a go im just trying to point out that better players don't nessisarily have opinions that are more right (Im not even opening the can of worms about people with high scores through cheating etc).

Obviously something needs to be done to weed out the maps that hugely advantage / disadvantage some races etc and im sure the dev's dont have the time to extensively test all the extra maps for balance but there are a lot of intelligent, articulate people on these forums and clearly there is a good channel from here to the Devs.
Would it not be possible for the community to play test the maps?
This seems like a good place to post opinions and that way you can get a broad sweep of feedback from the experts who will likely be able to tell you a statistical breakdown of why a line of mountains breaks the map to people like me who are more likely to say things like "i cant win on this map but i love it"
You would also get engaged, active players being able to try various parings both ways round to try and remove personal bias.......?
I know it would likely take more organising and effort but i expect many people would jump at the chance to help improve the game...

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."

May 06, 2012 07:33

Subject: Re:New maps in ranked

simsverd

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You could think that testing maps would be the best (or fairest) method, but its clearly not practical... there are well over 1000 maps.. and this is even before iOS users have begun to make them..
Please tell me a practical solution to how this possibly could work...?!

We have talked about an adjustment to current system, where only those over a certain level will vote for balance. All players will still vote for "fun factor" wich rankes the maps in the default wiew of the map browser.
You could ofc. argue that this is an eliteist approach. I think that aspect is of minor importance here. What is important is that those who votes for balance have and understanding of it. Inexperienced players often vote down very good balanced maps - just because they lost - i dont understand why you find such votes valuable in judging balance..?!

Moderator of gamechat and forum. Tourney admin.

Send me a PM here or invite me to a game if you want to ask me something, suggest a map for tourney or just wanna play a game

May 06, 2012 21:11

Subject: Re:New maps in ranked

Cpt Hawaiian

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Joined: Sep 12, 2010,
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Fool, thank you for sharing your opinions. The fact is that if a game is ranked, your playing score is affected. Thus, high-level players (any player really, but especially those who care about their scores) will not want to randomly be assigned to an unbalanced map and get an unfair disadvantage that could drastically affect their score.

Higher ranked players should be the ones with the most weight in voting for maps to become ranked because they truly understand ALL the units of EVERY race and how they interact with each other AND the map layouts. Being a lower-ranked player, you may not see all the things that are blatantly obvious to players ranked 2500+ (My score is only 2001 because I have stopped playing ranked games, but I assure you it would be well above 2500 if I still played ranked matches.)

This is not to demean you, but trust me, as you get higher in the ranks you will learn things and understand why nobody with high ranks will want to risk their scores to being randomly assigned to a terribly balanced map. As Sims points out, the voting system, once fixed, will still allow low-ranked players and everyone to rank for "fun" factor and in placement in the custom games lists, and that really is fair. But for balanced and ranked match voting, that should be left to those with a deep understanding of the game.

Now, to another matter. There are some highly ranked players at 2300+ that clearly do not play at that level or deserve that high of a ranking. I believe it must have been left over from the past when people could play bots and get points (before my time). So the ranking system, I believe, should be started afresh. Either that, or I am open to the idea of requiring a random map ranked match every month or something to that effect. But we must make sure the ranked maps are balanced first before doing that! haha

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MODERATOR has spoken.

May 07, 2012 00:22

Subject: Re:New maps in ranked

talone

Messages: 566,
Joined: Aug 02, 2010,
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One more time:

The problem of unbalanced map is SIMPLE can be solved so:

EACH ROUND CONSISTS OF 2 GAMES:
- a pseudo random generated one (see point 2)
- a rematch (the same opponents on the same map switch sides, the one who started the first game is second to go in the rematch)

Points awards
- The one who wins the 2 games gets points
- In case of 1 to 1 result the one who won with less turns gets points
- In case of 1 to 1 result and both games finished in the same number of turns no one gets points (draw

Who loves UniWar and wants seriously study the UniWar secrets and tactics - email me

May 07, 2012 12:37

Subject: Re:New maps in ranked

Fool

Messages: 10,
Joined: Mar 10, 2012,
Location: England
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Well i'm going to give my opinions no matter how spurious

I do understand what an enormous task it would be to try and actually playtest 1000+ maps... Assuming you want at least 5 plays with each race combination that would be... erm.... lots and lots of games. I just wonder if there are more things we can do from our end? Me and a very nice player ended up in a map we had never seen before (cant remember the title) and ended up running through all the possible race combinations just to see how it played different ways round. That was just fun, it seems like there are bound to be players who would willingly do this and provide specific feedback - though now I come to think about it collating that feedback would also be a pretty staggering task.
I guess I cant help but see the perils of the yes/no feedback - people maliciously thumbs downing after losing matches is surely just a start... i cant help but feel we could do more help from the player end.

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."

May 08, 2012 01:43

Subject: Re:New maps in ranked

NotThatGood

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Joined: Nov 30, 2011,
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Balancing should always depend on only good players opinion, as the fun-players would, as already said, ruin the balance. Why dont u make seperate map-pools for ranked and unranked games. unranked can be voted by all players, while ranked only can be rated by 2200+ (or even higher) players. this way ranked play can be competitive while unranked means fun-games. Seems good to me.

Anyway I also have another issue: There are a lot of map with tons of money and enough bases for an income of 1000+. That alone is imo just crap for people who like to think when playing a strategy game, but furthernore those maps often also have a very limited amount of space, making things even worse. Please stop creating those maps, whoever is making them!

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