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dan1 tourney 5
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BloodyHarry

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BloodyHarry

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  dan1 wrote: You win a game by either complete victory where you get the victory screen OR if you take an enemy base and hold on to it for 5 rounds without losing it back or losing one of your own.


There is currently a discussion with evcatz on the definition of "enemy base", which is decisive for the result of the matches between him and me. is an enemy base a base, which has been held by the enemy for at least 1 turn? or is it a base, which is supposed to be captured by the enemy because of geographic considerations? the answer is critical for the result of our tournament matches.
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simsverd

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simsverd

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  76patriot76 wrote: How do I get involved in tournament play? I'd really enjoy that.

Anyone can host tournaments.. and choose who can participate.
The tourneys me and dan has hosted have been high level players, mostly 2500+

In the future we might do tourneys with qualification play also for players with lower score.

Moderator of gamechat and forum. Tourney admin.

Send me a PM here or invite me to a game if you want to ask me something, suggest a map for tourney or just wanna play a game
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bagolyfi

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bagolyfi

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bagolyfi won red sap vs Jarek blue khral round 15
bagolyfi won blue khral vs Jarek red sap round 14
bagolyfi

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bagolyfi

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bagolyfi won red sap vs Jarek blue khral round 15
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simsverd

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simsverd

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simsverd wins deliann as blue titan vs red khral in round 22
deliann wins simsverd as blue titan vs red khral in round 28

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at May 14, 2013 11:15


Moderator of gamechat and forum. Tourney admin.

Send me a PM here or invite me to a game if you want to ask me something, suggest a map for tourney or just wanna play a game
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yngwie

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yngwie

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Yngwie (blue khral) win Jarek (red titan) in 15 round
dan1

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dan1

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hi unfortunately i know the situation you are talking about. i did not see this fault in map when picking it. i always try to avoid such things in map choice.

for anyone that did not see it it was if you were blue sapien. you could not cap one of your bases and build a maurader at your bottom base. then you can stop red capping his base.

but map is mirrored so the same advantage was there for all. also in my eyes it was actually a disadvantage. i found it in one game as blue saps and did just that stopped red capping. but i felt it took me longer to win this way than just letting the cap happen. i also think played correctly you can still cap a few rounds later leaving blue a bit stretched.

okay enough of the explanation. the answer is. that base should really be yours due to the lay out of the map. so capping that base still counts as capping enemy base. if not there really really would be no point of stopping it.

sorry to all for this fault in map choice but as explained above it is still mirrored.

I need to make sure maps are made with 200 credits or less to start.

dan1

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dan1

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few more updates on sheet

also i have beat cytivrat blue sap v red kharl in 9 rounds.
i have advantage as red kharl at the mo in more than 9 rounds. so win goes to me but second result not yet in sheet

i have heard bits of most games. the only name i have not heard is supercc can someone confirm his games are active. many thanks
BloodyHarry

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BloodyHarry

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  dan1 wrote: hi unfortunately i know the situation you are talking about. i did not see this fault in map when picking it. i always try to avoid such things in map choice.

for anyone that did not see it it was if you were blue sapien. you could not cap one of your bases and build a maurader at your bottom base. then you can stop red capping his base.

but map is mirrored so the same advantage was there for all. also in my eyes it was actually a disadvantage. i found it in one game as blue saps and did just that stopped red capping. but i felt it took me longer to win this way than just letting the cap happen. i also think played correctly you can still cap a few rounds later leaving blue a bit stretched.

okay enough of the explanation. the answer is. that base should really be yours due to the lay out of the map. so capping that base still counts as capping enemy base. if not there really really would be no point of stopping it.

sorry to all for this fault in map choice but as explained above it is still mirrored.


dan, of course i accept the decision of the jury

but let me make following remarks:

1. the matches are mirrored, so there was no unfair advantage to any player. so i cannot see any problem with the map. evcatz was clever to see the opportunity, while i didn't.

2. nevertheless i thought an uncaptured base clearly to be neutral. of course it's evident, that the base we are talking about should under normal conditions be captured by me. but if we play on other maps, this might not be so clear. so in future tournaments it needs to be defined before the start, which bases have to be occupied by whom. i don't think that this would be a good idea. some tactical variants might be excluded. so i think it would be better to keep things simple and define enemy bases as bases which where held by the enemy for at least 1 turn.
cytivrat

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cytivrat

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On my opinion it clearer and better to define this rule like "to have at least two additional bases compared to your opponent", in this case if everyone has 4 bases at the start and then someone captures 1 enemy base this will result 5 - 3. Of course this also covers situation when someone captured all his bases and didn't let opponent to get two of his bases, but if someone is able to do this, I guess he will win any way and there is no sense to delay that win (except waiting for those 5 turns defined by the current rule)
dan1

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dan1

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yes i agree in that it should have been clear from the start but until we started i was not aware of it. but i will make it clear for future incase i miss something in the future.

but the main point of the rule was to keep the action and not have fights were people play defensive. as some times you can see a race is not probably going to win as easy as another. so in previous tournament people would sit back and get stuck in. and losing a base was not so bad. this way you have to fight to save it.

from what i have heard bloody you capped his base 5 rounds later. so if you played out the games evcatz would win in a quicker amount of rounds overall. i made the choice over the matter based on this as it would not be far that really he would have beat you quicker if played to the end same as probably all the other games completed using this rule.

hope that all makes sense i find it hard to explain what i mean sometimes
dan1

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dan1

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cytivrant explains it also the way i believe.

i also dont usually choose maps where there is a rush to an open base or where people can stop each other. i like it to be a nice match up. but as shown here sometimes it will slip past me. and for those games i will be using the rule of cytivrat.

all comments or ideas welcome
BloodyHarry

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BloodyHarry

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dan, unless it's a very low income match, it's always a desaster to lose a base. so there wouldn't be any change in strategy, i believe.

cytivrat's proposal is simple and makes sense.

in the first match against evcatz he captured "my" neutral base after only a few turns. i was defeated in turn 12. the 5-turn-hold-a-captured-enemy-b ase rule in my interpretation there was not applicable. in the second match i captured one of evcatz's bases in turn 7 and held it until turn 12, which is defined as a winning condition. so i thought it's a draw.

in this case, the implementation of the cytivrat-rule would have meant an early overall decision and a only minimal chance to come back via the other match.

to summarize all: it's okay to declare evcatz as winner (both matches were absolutely thrilling and real fun). but i would prefer my enemy-base-definition for the future. in my opinion cytivrat's rule is second best. and i would not like any geographical considerations in the definition.

EvCatz

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EvCatz

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I was under the impression that the rule was in effect for me the entire time; I don't see why I shouldn't have, and it's still difficult for me to comprehend how BloodyHarry thought it was not. My line of thinking was that as long as I did not let BloodyHarry recapture a base in the game I was winning, there was no possible way for him to win the series (my win would certainly come faster). This affected the way I played both games. Different winning requirements will always have an effect on someone's strategy. In my opinion, the fact that BloodyHarry also did not react to my attack at all (he built nothing round 1 and continued to capture his base anyways even though he had vision of my marine not capturing my own base) means he can't even claim the attack was unfair (he claimed it was fair only because the map was mirrored). If BloodyHarry was in my position, I have no doubt in my mind that he would be baffled by the same opinions that he is claiming right now. I'm trying my best to not come off as rude but I felt insulted. Dan was also correct in his assumption that I would win faster when disregarding the 5-turn rule. I won on move 12 and he won on move 14.

Since I'm posting now, I might as well post the results to my other finished games:
EvCatz (Blue Sapien) winner vs. Indianajones (Red Titan) in 8 turns (surrender).
EvCatz (Red Titan) winner vs. Indianajones (Blue Sapien) in 10 turns (surrender).
EvCatz (Blue Sapien) winner vs. WolfCat (Red Titan) in 12 rounds.

My other game against WolfCat is on turn 17 already. It's still too early in both of my games against Vogon Jeltz to say who has the advantage. My games with Vogon Jeltz are Blue Titan vs. Red Sapien if anyone was curious. I'll post the results of these games when they are finished.


Regards,
EvCat z

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at May 11, 2013 13:31

dan1

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dan1

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i agree with bloody in that the rule should have been in place to start with but i did not think there would ever be a need for such a rule within the maps i pick. so that was my bad. but i stick with what i have said as i have tried to explain it to the best i can in what i believe was correct.

i dont understand why the rule cytivrat would not play in this game. without capping you had base difference of 3 to 4 and then when he caps the open base that makes 3 to 5. please explain a map scenario where his rule would not work as i don't want to incorporate it if it will not help.

sorry again for the mix up. but I'm pretty sure most people will see it the way that evctz cap would count.
i very much doubt my mind would but if the result turns out to be crucial for the group i will reopen the issue for discussion with the rest of the field. but i will state that i will hold final judgement.

i also don't think bloody harry was doing anything wrong in bringing this to the table. my original statement does say a cap of an enemy base. but i believe most of us assumed that meant 1 base from the opposite side of the board. if the board was layed different this would have made more of an issue. but with that i also would not have had the 5 turn rule or made clear if there was an indecisive base.

im still open for chat on this for future tournaments. but for these games we will leave it until we know if it is crucial.
i will take chat on the 5 turn rule as i know 1 or 2 players from previous tournaments would probably prefer to play without it.

what are your thoughts on this. keep it or scrap it. please dont take into account the mishaps of the rule this time as it would be perfected for next time
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