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Frozen planet - first tourney in round robin format
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A.Buendia

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A.Buendia

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Sims, could you answer this question by EVR1022, please: "Hey sims, will round 2 of the tournament be set up the same way? Top four players in Group 1, next four in Group 2, etc.? "

You said: "i agree that both organizing of the brackets and rated/unrated should have been know on signup."

So i think that you could tell us at least about 2nd round and next rounds.
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simsverd

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simsverd

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The answer is yes.

First 3 rounds are round robin with groups of 4. Last 3 rounds are single elimination with mirrored games

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 17, 2015 19:11


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Lucy in sky

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Lucy in sky

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here are some comments:
1. i really like the tourney integration with the game and website. it's cool.
2. i also like the divisions by player ranking.
3. the first map (number eight) seems rather unbalanced for khraleans vs titans or sapiens. especially red khraleans vs blue titans. is there even a way to win this matchup against a good player? if this had been a random game i got, i would have offered peace immediately. so maybe for future tourneys, remove the unbalanced race combos from the tourney. and if not, maybe just make the games unrated.
4. it would be nice to be able to see the number of rounds that the matches were won in on the website tourney results so that we could know who will advance. also would be nice to see which races were in the matches.
5. i'm guessing i won't advance since johnalei already won 2 games, so even if i win the last game it will probably be in more rounds. i'm actually kind of happy about this since it is a bit too much time for me currently - to play 3 games twice a day. but i will make an effort to join future tourneys (depending on the organizer) because i think they're good for the uniwar community and i did have fun in this one. (i tried to convince my hubby to join the tourney but he's attending a 3 day conference now so really doesn't have time to play.)

anyway, thanks Simsverd for this tourney
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simsverd

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simsverd

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  Lucy in sky wrote:here are some comments:
1. i really like the tourney integration with the game and website. it's cool.
2. i also like the divisions by player ranking.
3. the first map (number eight) seems rather unbalanced for khraleans vs titans or sapiens. especially red khraleans vs blue titans. is there even a way to win this matchup against a good player? if this had been a random game i got, i would have offered peace immediately. so maybe for future tourneys, remove the unbalanced race combos from the tourney. and if not, maybe just make the games unrated.
4. it would be nice to be able to see the number of rounds that the matches were won in on the website tourney results so that we could know who will advance. also would be nice to see which races were in the matches.
5. i'm guessing i won't advance since johnalei already won 2 games, so even if i win the last game it will probably be in more rounds. i'm actually kind of happy about this since it is a bit too much time for me currently - to play 3 games twice a day. but i will make an effort to join future tourneys (depending on the organizer) because i think they're good for the uniwar community and i did have fun in this one. (i tried to convince my hubby to join the tourney but he's attending a 3 day conference now so really doesn't have time to play.)

anyway, thanks Simsverd for this tourney

Thank you Lucy! (Xavi did most of the work thuogh)

1. Me also! In-game tourneys will be a feature wich are planned in the coming months - summer?)
2. In a casual tourney as this it would be the best. But in a serios tourney it wuld probably be done random to prevent to many of the top players to be eliminated in the first round.
3. I picked the maps, and i tried to get them as fair as possible, thus only smaller and medium maps. Its just not possible to obtain 100%fairness unless we do mirror games. In a more serious tourney there will most probably be mirror games at all stages. Matchups where randomized in this tourney and all had to play all 3 races one time.
4. Agree. Not sure how it could be visionized, but il ask Xavi.
5. Hope to see you in tourneys to come! ...and this one.. if a miracle happens

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elroyomj

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elroyomj

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Sims-

I saw that you posted the next round is set up the same way as the first (round robin) but I didn't see whether or not it would be rated. Also, how will the groups be chosen? I.e. Will group winners from 1-4 be lumped into one or will the group winners be scrambled.

If it matters at all I would say unranked and scrambled but I have a feeling it will be the opposite

Not that I will make it there anyway. Wolfcat is on the prowl and looks hungry.

Elroy
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simsverd

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simsverd

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Sorry for late answer elroy..

Map order:
R1 - NumberEight
R2 - Klondike
R3 - WinterTourney
R4 - Crashlandingfinal
R5 - NumberEight
etc

And you are rigt about order and rated.

Personally i would prefer unrated, at least on round3+. ...but its not my call.

Think this tourney is sorted by order. At least until the gruop stages are over..

Will update with info as soon as i get it

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Invul

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Invul

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I advance to the 3rd round, wainning by rounds. But in game with Il12Rus i've lost. So it's more honest to determine winner by result of game of potential winners, if there aer only 2 players with equal score
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simsverd

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simsverd

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Congratulation on you winning the group Invul!

I would think that "fair" is a better word here than "honest" in an automatic evaluation of a game

The method for determining winner automatically has to be simple, robust, scalable and fit for different scenarios.

In a group of 4 it is quite possible to have 3 or 4 players with same ammount of points and wins. Actually they can all have beaten each other.

Win by least ammount of rounds in the winning games is a good (but not perfect) method. There have to be some reasonable tradoffs when doing this automatically - and a manual evaluation will just not be possible with hundreds of games in each round..

And the method of evaluation is known to the players in advance.

But if you like i would be happy to discuss it further to see if we can improve upon current chosen method

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johnalei

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johnalei

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Sim, when measuring rounds, would round of win - round of lose sound better than simple round count? In a 2 player game or mirror game, count of round will be the same. An example here: player a win player b in game 1 for 7 rounds, player a lose to player b in game 2 for 10 rounds. Count of rounds are both 17. Count win-lose round for player a is 7-10=-3. Win-lose round of player b is 10-7 =3. Player a should win because he use less round to win and last more rounds in the game he lose. Just my 2 cents. Happy games!!!

  simsverd wrote:Congratulation on you winning the group Invul!

I would think that "fair" is a better word here than "honest" in an automatic evaluation of a game

The method for determining winner automatically has to be simple, robust, scalable and fit for different scenarios.

In a group of 4 it is quite possible to have 3 or 4 players with same ammount of points and wins. Actually they can all have beaten each other.

Win by least ammount of rounds in the winning games is a good (but not perfect) method. There have to be some reasonable tradoffs when doing this automatically - and a manual evaluation will just not be possible with hundreds of games in each round..

And the method of evaluation is known to the players in advance.

But if you like i would be happy to discuss it further to see if we can improve upon current chosen method
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simsverd

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simsverd

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hello johnalei!

I understand what you mean. The reason for not doing it that way is that matchups witch result in long buildup times will to much affect the total outcome because of so many rounds.. specially this apply in a round-robin format with more players in a group.... Its (in my opinion) better that players have one major incentive - to win as fast as possible.

Your example on mirror game would produce the same end result as the method currently in place..

Good luck onwards in the tourney and future tourneys!

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yngwie

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yngwie

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I repeat what I wrote in the chat. Dear developers! I would like to comment on the tournament. Automated tournament - it's very cool. But the lack of mirror games negates the entire fan of the game. On the second map perfectly clear that khral has a huge advantage over titanium. Similarly, red SAP (titanium) has an advantage over blue SAP (titanium). As a result of what we have? The tournament victory is not the strongest player, and that someone more lucky. It is not called the tournament. This is called a lottery. If newcomers want to win tournaments and not to meet with the masters, the tournament is held separately for beginners. masters want to get a real fan of honest and fair combat intelligence. Summing up I want to ask the organizers of the tournament "double inpact" enter the game mirror at all stages of the tournament. This will increase fun and interest in the tournament and will remove the effect of randomness to the game. Thank you for your attention. Sorry for my English.
pak fa

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pak fa

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Hallo every UniWarriors!Hallo Sims!Thank you to organize of tournaments!
I m know,this is difficult and hard work.
Im understand desire to create new form of tournament.This form named as 'casual','robin' tournament.
New tournament is cool,great!
We all know tournaments,who be made with helping community of Runiwar.ru.
New tournaments made by simple scheme.
But 'simple' not equal 'fair'.And 'fair' not equal 'difficult'.
We all know way to made tournament fair,simple,fun and easy.
Automate of tournament it is cool!Automate make tournament be easy.
Mirrored games,new research of playing make games fairness.All come to New World,where khral vs sap is not loose,but good chanse find victory!
Automate and mirrored games,working togeather, make playing simple,fast and fair!
I want to ask,will new tournament'Double Impact' be use this fairness system?
Thank you for your patetience!
yngwie

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yngwie

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Pak fa, Beautifully said! I totally agree.

Once again I repeat. Now we have going lottery. But not the tournament. Tournament - a fair competition between the players. A fair competition can provide a mirror game! Balanced map for all races can not be created.
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simsverd

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simsverd

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Hello yngvie and pak fa!

Thank you for your constructive feedback

Evolution of tourney features
The Frozen Planet and Double Impact tourneys are the first tourneys in round robin and team wich is semi automated. They are as such important tools to drive evolution of the coming in-game tourney features of uniwar wich is planned later this year. The tourneys have been open for all players (+1700 score in Double impact), and they have primarily been set up to be fun for most of the players and not specifically targeted towards a special group , for example the top players.
I understand that "fun" is subjective and many of the better players have been very dissatisfied with tha fact that mirror matches was not done on all stages.
The evolving on tourney features is "work in progress", and we are open to discuss how this features should be implemented. But these 2 tourneys are not how all tourneys wil be done in the future - regardless of what some are trying to tell! The in-game tourney feature will have different options to set (rated/unrated/mirror/start by score or random etc etc).
It is not decided yet if there be a classification of tourneys (for example: beginner/casual/expert), and wich tourneys that will be shown on profile. If you have good ideas on this please let us know.

The Frozen Planet
When maps where picked it was unclear if it would be mirror or not. Its easy to see that more balanced maps could have been picked
Draw was done by score, wich is good for many of the lower ranked players, but not so for the top players.. since 3/4 of the best players dont advance each round.
We admit that some of the important details could have been better explained, but im pretty sure that it was clear that it was not mirror in the rules in the registration form ...

Double impact
The group stages are planned to be single games in randomly drawn groups. I personally would have wanted mirror on all stages, but its not my call... and there are other things to consider than the needs of the top players (even though some have a hard time agreeing on that). But i will discuss it with Xavi and we can just wait and see...



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simsverd

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simsverd

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And finally some breaking news - the sky is not falling
Uniwar have not and will not change into an "arkade toy" because of some work on trying to build in-game tourney features... regardless of what someone seems to think.
In fact, the game will improve in seriousness and fairness when Xavi in a few weeks does the ratings reform. I hope you will participate in the discussions here on the official forum.

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