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Unit BALANCE changes
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xavi

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xavi

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Yes, we do have test servers. I could give give BETA builds access to it.

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Red Five

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Red Five

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Hi there, I would like to put in my two cents for what it's worth.

I think looking at the current units in a vacuum, it's a pretty balanced game, but I'm certainly open to minor tweaks here and there.

In my opinion, I think the biggest culprit of game-play imbalance is due to the map configuation. No amount of stat changing will cure skewed maps.

With that said, I think the best way to address imbalance is to thoroughly look at each rated map, and only allow rated games on maps that are reasonably balanced for any race combo.

Also, I'd just like to say thanks to all the devs for making this game awesome, I love it!
Evad

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Evad

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Hey guys. I really appreciate you all trying to make Uniwar Better. It is my favorite game of all time. And thanks for all the updates and tourneys that help keep the community engaged.
I looked over all the changes. Most I am ok with. The tank cost reduction to 350 is the best. Otherwise I think the tank is almost useless. Lol. Maybe even go a step further and give it a slight attack against air? I realize real life tanks had little power against air, but many tanks have a machine gunner attached, so this could be an argument for giving tanks an attack vs air. Their cost would probably be best at 400 if they are given this boost vs air.

I don't like the deduction in swarmer attack vs heavy ground. If anything it should be increased just a tad. How many times do u have to hit a plasma w swarmer before it registers? Also I don't like weakening the wyrm vs heavies either. Their extreme vulnerability makes their power a fair trade-off.

Just my two cents....
apocalypse.N

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apocalypse.N

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Xavi, could you pls give me a list of all the changes? Because many Chinese players can't visit Google where you have put the changes document in, including me.
Abie

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Abie

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I am going to put in my two cents as well, but with Full Disclosure so that people are aware of me.
I've been playing for 3 months and I am rated 1800+.

With regards to these changes, the only one where I think I have enough knowledge of is the Battery.

Back to Earth's point, I do think that increasing the mobility on Move after attack from 4 to 7 is a huge stretch. being able to go across the terrain 2 spots on move would be gigantic and make them overpowered.

What I would suggest is that the mobility be increased enough to where the Battery can move onto a forest hex, because the Battery cannot do that on MAA. Currently on MAA a Battery can only move to other plain hexes.
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StarryBlink

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StarryBlink

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Good proposal overall Xavi. Although you nerf my lovely jeep a little bit But it's alright .

Just a few comments :

1. Battery move after attack of 7 is too much. Likely to make it overpowered.
Just make them able to do move after attack on Forrest and Swamp is enough.
Maybe increase its move after attack to 5. And decrease their mobility cost on swamp & forest to 5.

2. And what about titan speeder ? Now it's the worst 250 dollar unit.
Increase speeder's mobility from 16 to 18 should make it more comparable to jeep & swarmer.

After all. As your proposal about balance adjust is already fine.
If you want to adjust it a little bit, Pleaseeee implement it down on November, 22th anyway.
We're waiting for the balance adjust for so so long.
It may not reach the absolute balance, But that's just like our human's lives : forever on the process of adjusting.
careloads

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careloads

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I think picking any two of the three changes to the Battery would be better than all three. Battery unit would be too strong with all those changes.

Would Mecha II get a similar bonus to arial attack?

WolfSaint

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WolfSaint

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  talone wrote:The main problems of race imbalances are not solved.

These changes are pushing the game to a more primitive solutions. It is well seen that these changes are made by inexperienced players. Tactic combinations are not counted. Only linear primitive solutions are stimulated.

Outcome:
1. The balance is still no there. In some situations the balance become even worse
2. Gameplay became more primitive
3. In general it will change nothing for UniWar.

It is better not to change anything then make this changes. Most players will not notice anything. For those few who understand the essence of gameplay, these changes are insignificant against the background of a much more serious imbalance. You change a fly, but do not notice the elephant. I know you want to praise you, instead of criticizing. Believe me, I would like to praise you, but not for that. You can delete this post if want, I will not be offended.



Wow, that's not what I see at all...lets double-check the main issues...

Sapiens Marauder op in svt & svk...nerfed...solved
Titan Plasma op vs air...nerfed...solved.
Khral Swarmer op in svk, tvk, and kvk...def & hg atk nerfed...solved.
Khral Wyrm op vs hg...nerfed so heavy units have a chance of survival (considering it is an artillery with no minimum range)...solved.

Minor fixes to compensate for drops in other fields...
Sapiens increases heavies (thus making it neutral against titans, dominantly heavy)
Khral increase to anti-air (in combination with drop of Swarmer makes kvk balanced)
Titan increase to anti-air (adjusted to work with drop of swarmers, and minorly to make lg more fair vs Mechas (mass-teleport) and Underlings (bonus dmg when surfaced))

Not to sound insultive, but I honestly expected one of the best players in the game to understand how it was imbalanced and therefore see how these changes make it more balanced. Sapiens are now dominant offense with weakness on defensive play, titans are defensive with weakness on expense and mobility, and Khral's dominate in cheap troops and wide mobility with the decrease in dmg output...that looks like a perfect triangle to me
kyle kroeger

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kyle kroeger

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Thank you to everyone who has responded so far.

To earth and others: I am surprised to hear your resistance to 7 mobility after attack for the battery. The battery is the most complained about artillery type unit. From my point of view, the battery is only good against Titans and the sapiens could use a lot of help in that department.

To earth: I am very surprised to hear that you use wyrm vs saps. Is that a current meta? If so, this is a meta that I am not aware of and I would like to know more.

To Wolfsaint: thank you for very clearly pointing out the inconsistencies in Talone's critism.

To Xavi: I understand some of the options you chose, but I'm worried about others. I'll send you an email.

Abie

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Abie

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  StarryBlink wrote:Good proposal overall Xavi. Although you nerf my lovely jeep a little bit But it's alright .

Just a few comments :

1. Battery move after attack of 7 is too much. Likely to make it overpowered.
Just make them able to do move after attack on Forrest and Swamp is enough.
Maybe increase its move after attack to 5. And decrease their mobility cost on swamp & forest to 5.

2. And what about titan speeder ? Now it's the worst 250 dollar unit.
Increase speeder's mobility from 16 to 18 should make it more comparable to jeep & swarmer.


The Battery change is big. It will be completely overpowered if it goes up to 7 mobility. Making them able to move after attack on Forest and Swamp is perfect in my opinion.


I also want to add in another issue that has been brought up. I know people are saying that low rated players aren't going to notice these changes. I sort of beg to differ, because I think that some will notice. I certainly will notice. I love this game and I want it to be the best there is in the world. I am trying hard to get my rating up to 2000++, which I seriously hope to by the end of this year.
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talone

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talone

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  kyle kroeger wrote:

To earth: I am very surprised to hear that you use wyrm vs saps.



This phrase say a lot about real qualification of this changes. How can you improve balance if you even don't know the game? How can you make Wyrm better in future if you totally don't know how to use it in present? It is strongly not enough six months playing to make so many changes in balance. Using wyrm against saps is one of the key main khral strategy in many situations. Better dont touch the balance with so low level of UniWar knowledge

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apocalypse.N

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apocalypse.N

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ah, finally i got a method to open the link and nowi know what is about to change. here are some of my opinions.
1. marauder's change is deadly, but still acceptable. though acceptable, it is still a giant nerf.
2. tank's prize change to 350, this change may be kind of stupid. it makes svt more unbalanced in small maps, but can hardly change the disadvantage of svt in large maps.
3. the three buff to battery, i think mobility 7 is a minor buff, move after attack mobility 7 is hardly not a buff(too minor), range 2-4 is a somehow bigger buff. why? because in actual svt battle(svs and svk dont neet battery), move after attack from 3 to 6 to 7 or to 999 doesnt make any changes at all, although mobility 7 agter attack may seem beautiful, it is showy but not practical. range 2-4 can counter swarmers and eclipse attack, that is fine, but battery shall not appear in svk. the changes doesnt change any critical limits about battery(such as its combat radious is 4 while copters, marauders, wyrm, swarmers, garuda, eclipse and walkers are 5), so there are almost useless.
4. the buff to engineer is not practical. in small maps where engineer appears in svt, you hardly wait gor 10 rounds for it to recharge. in larger maps, even svt dont need engineers at all.
5. anti air changes of plasma and mecha is fine, though i personally think there is no need to do it at all.
6. eclipse cost to 350 is a great buff. now eclipse can counter copters and swarmers. i personally think titans have the biggest buff, maybe we can change its cost to 375.
7. swarmers nerf is too big. now pinzer can hit 4 hp while taking 0 dmg(75%)when facing swarmers, if a wyrm hit a swarmer(-, even after that it is killed by two swarmers(swarmers -8 and -4), it is not bad for the wyrm side. and with the buff of eclipse, swarmers are likely to dissapear in kvt, only in kvs can swarmers appear, and it is even nerfer in kvs because lacking in 1 def.i think the defence should remain where it was, and attack is ok to nerf.
8. pinzer 2 anti air is a ok idea.
9. wyrm changes are good, buff kvs and nerf kvt, i appreciate it.
10. garuda seldom appears in kvt(with the buff of eclipse, there should be even less garuda), and in kvs sapiens only but speeders, so this buff is almost meaningless. i would like garuda to gain some extra defense and extra anti air.
11. leviathan change is sth i dont really understand, after all, sea battle is not as importaht as land battle.
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simsverd

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simsverd

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good suggestions !

Some comments:

1. Tank cost will not solve titan vs sap on bigger maps (with "buildup"), but it is ok on smaller and medium maps
2. Battery: im ok with all suggestion, and the battery will be a very fun unit.. but it will not be much better at taking down the plasma wall... i would rather reduce the buff for move after attack to 5 and give it +1 ground heavy instead.
3. EMP interval with the engineer will not solve anything, at higher levels of play its a great job just to get the engineer in position to fire.. its "life-expecancy" is very short, and 15 to 10 rounds cooldown will hardly make any difference.
4. Wyrm air is not so needed. Its already a very good vs air unit, and with pinzer getting +1 air (wich is great)... the helis can no longer ravage the khral pinzers so easily.


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gemo

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gemo

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Love the changes. It is funny how I already knew about all these imbalances. Last battery price ibcrease by $100 kinda ruined it, this should make it a better unit. Please include battery and speeder retreat move points on the in-game info card.
Dantistas

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Dantistas

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Let me start off by saying that I really like the game! I play it once or twice daily. I have much less experience than talone or Earth, but I somehow managed to get into 2300+ ranks.

I would like to build upon what talone said (one of my most respected uniwar players).

What I understood from talone's criticism is that too many changes are made at once.
I strongly agree with that. I have learned that changes must be precise and SMALL. When making a change we must know exactly the problem we are solving so we can check if the change actually solved.

To put it into perspective, it seems that currently many different changes (16 in total) are made to address just a couple of issues. For example, one issue is that battery is underpowered and underused - 3 different changes are proposed.
Now if battery becomes balanced, that's great. However, considering the scenarios when battery becomes overpowered, how will one know which changes made it overpowered? One has to revert everything and start all over, which would be devastating considering how many things were changed.

Example from other companies: Starcraft II. Their balances changes are very minor and specific. These can be easily tested and reverted back to if neccessary.

My suggestion:
1. Write out the issues with balance in order of importance (the issues must also be distinct).
2. Make 1 change per issue.
3. Make no more than 3 changes (3 issues addressed per update).

This way you will be able measure the impact of these changes and then you can repeat the process.

TLDR: I think you are making too many changes at once. Too many changes will make it hard to know what helped and what harmed the balance. Make no more than 3 changes for 3 separate issues (1 change per issue) and repeat the process.

Best of luck!

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