Unit BALANCE changes

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Nov 15, 2015 09:04

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

talone

Messages: 566,
Joined: Aug 02, 2010,
Location: runiwar.ru
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And the main what i want to say. The balance should be made by true professionals who has huge knowledge, a lot of time for testing and responsibility for their decisions. They must oversee the work on setting up the balance from beginning to end, some months or years if needed. They must know and understand the whole picture
, not the only fragments of ideas. There must be a clear understanding of the goals we want to achieve when changing something step by step. But in this changes i see unprofessional and chaotic approach. These changes - one big heap without any purpose.

The balance for strategy is more significant then programming code.

Can you trust to work with programming code to inexperienced amateurs or to professionals? But the work with balance need more professionalism then programing. So if you want to make Uniwar something more then mobile arcade you must use professional approach in the main part of game building - in balance.

Why didn't you use surveys or helping inexperienced amateurs to make program code better? Because you take seriously to work with programming code, but not seriously to work with balance. Surveys and amateurs are not serious if you want to make balance better.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at Nov 15, 2015 10:24

Who loves UniWar and wants seriously study the UniWar secrets and tactics - email me

Nov 15, 2015 09:28

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

I.AM.THE.MTN

Messages: 4,
Joined: Oct 22, 2015,
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"Change is Crazy!"

Once my mother made me pizza from scratch. Sounds good right?
She didn't have pepperoni so she used salami.
She didn't have mozzerella so she used parmisan.
She didn't have tomato paste so she used ketchup...
those ingredients are wonderful and can really add a lot to a meal. Needless to say, It really was literally one of the most alarming, memorable and grossest things of my childhood.

The point to my story? Cause and Effect.

I highly agree with the words from Dantistas.

Alterations to game mechanics should be decisive, minor and very few if not one at a time. Give LOTS of time to see how the changes really affect the gameplay.

Make a change, see if it snowballs, reflect on the result.

I may not be a very competitive or extensively experienced UNIWAR player, but I love this game and am trying to be an active member of the community. My training as a classical musician, composer, educator and performer has given me the ability to process things in a different light with an understanding of how people learn new skills, process change and develop old habits. How do you fix a habit? You can't, you replace it with a new one- and that takes TIME! Same thing applies to playing any game, especially one so thoughtful as this.

If the game mechanics change so much and all at once, there'd be no way to see what really worked and what unexpectedly doesn't. Also, the re-learning curve would be too great to stomach easily for any player.

Nov 15, 2015 09:31

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

I.AM.THE.MTN

Messages: 4,
Joined: Oct 22, 2015,
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I'm happy that the community is so proactive and excited to be a part of the evolution of UNIWAR, but I'm also very concerned that making 16 changes at once could in a way "break" the game._.

Advanced players would understand exactly how to "beat the system" and they could and will chart out the changes like a math project then use those results to crush unsuspecting casual "weekend warriors".

UNIWAR would quickly develop into a elite game of number crunching more than it already is, actually making it much LESS balanced than before.

While on paper the races would seem balanced and neutral " the balanced triangle", less experienced players would be left out in the dust, overwealmed, undergunned and out numbered as their troops get quickly and systematically burned. The nuances that made the game unique would be cemented over with logic and vanilla. (Vanilla = nice but boring)

As a lesser but important side note, some players might feel intensely upset with the overhaul. Not simply because they wouldn't be able to keep up with the more practiced and well informed players but because they felt somehow attached to the old stats. These stats contributed to their personal strategies and is a part of their mental image of what UNIWAR is to them. Too frustrated to put effort into, or tired of trying to learn the new system they might quit the game entirely. It's just human nature. Anyone ever play a game where your favorite character got nerfed and you immediately boycotted the character or even the game? Personally that's never happened to me but it's easy to imagine that happening time and time again in many different contexts.

I'm not afraid of change, and I look forward to the continual evolution of this awesome game.

My mandate is to shed light on how human nature will also have an affect on the outcome of the proposed nerfs and buffs.

Please consider make 1-3 more subtle yet clear changes a week, with a way to systematically retrieve and analyze data both from the servers and community to see if these alterations have the desired effect or if they simply widen the gap between pro players and the rest...

Save and continue or revert to old?
Rinse, wash, repeat.

[ Try to bake a cake but change all the ingredients and you might end up with a nasty science project rather than a tasty dish. ]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 15, 2015 09:34

Nov 15, 2015 09:44

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

I.AM.THE.MTN

Messages: 4,
Joined: Oct 22, 2015,
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Finding balance takes time and dedication.

If UNIWAR wakes up with a new face, it could crumble from the inside out.

Like the mysteries of life, balance cannot be achived overnight.
It is something we strive for with patience, careful planning and clear goals In sight.

Thank you for your time!

Nov 15, 2015 10:14

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

guinwza

Messages: 6,
Joined: May 01, 2015,
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I argree, the change should be as minor as possible to not ruin the beauty of the gameplay.

IMO: you should sort out the unbalanced map out from ranked map pool first this may sounds hard but may be the easiest way to balancing this game with very little change and little coding needed ,even average player like me see that some maps is highly unbalanced or broken , I remember randomed the map named the Great wall as titan against khar and lose miserably because the map highly unflavor for tank battle (this map may be good if its svs or kvk or svk and there's many maps that not balance at all in random game still present

and another thing that I want to suggest as a player is improve the imba random like i saw in legia's post on the "balance suggestion" in "New feature request forum" you will see 4hp marine hit 2 damage to 7hp marine while 7 hp marine deal only 1 damage as he said no gang up and screenshot clearly show that both marine is on same terrain i think random is ok but this is way too much luck dependent for a strategy game

thanks for reading, best regards.

Nov 15, 2015 11:59

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

LiquidAgua

Messages: 1,
Joined: Nov 17, 2012,
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After few years playing this game with all the races, these are my thoughts.

Short version:
- Sapiens have been buffed, specially against Kha.
- Kha have been nerfed hard, specially against Sapiens.
- Titans have been rebalanced.

The old balance Sapiens > Kha > Titans > Sapiens could be altered. The problem is still there, sapiens could still abusing Kha using marines and helis (Even with the new Wyrm), Titans can easily Turtle against the Sapiens ToyTanks and their, slighty superior, long range unit. However, before this patch is applied, Kha may have the upperhand against Titans, but now it has been nerfed against groundHeavy. Swarmers are weaker, and Garudas are one point stronger - but if you use them to attack ground heavy units, the will die in seconds due to the medium Garuda defense a short range in comparison with the Eclipse damage or Plasma Tank defence.

I don't see how Kha would be viable now. I would restore the Wyrm damage to heavy units to 10 (keeping the anti-air damage, since Kha lack this). Also, I don't see the threat that a Wyrm can suppose against a barrier of Plasma Tanks and Walkers, they would be dead in the most cases, specially with hard terrain that inhibit their move. It's true Kha was needing some help against aerial creatures, but its damage against tank was ok.

I also would decrease in one point the move of the artillery after the attack.

I love the new Mechas.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 15, 2015 12:01

Nov 15, 2015 12:25

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

tr0ublemaker

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Joined: Nov 15, 2015,
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I don't like the idea of reducing the cost of the tanks. How about giving helicopters 1-2 attack range but ONLY against ground heavy units. You would also need to reduce their attack strength against ground heavy for 1 point. This change shouldn't have much impact on K vs. S matcup but it could bringe more balance in S vs. T matcup.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Nov 15, 2015 13:19

Nov 15, 2015 12:39

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

earth

Messages: 51,
Joined: Aug 11, 2011,
Location: UK
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kyle kroeger wrote:

To earth and others: I am surprised to hear your resistance to 7 mobility after attack for the battery. The battery is the most complained about artillery type unit. From my point of view, the battery is only good against Titans and the sapiens could use a lot of help in that department.

To earth: I am very surprised to hear that you use wyrm vs saps. Is that a current meta? If so, this is a meta that I am not aware of and I would like to know more.

That is the added benefit of having people provide feedback to help, for some of us we try to 'master' Khrals, sap and Titans over a very long period... of course any race can have it's day on the battle field, however trust/hope my feedback is listened to, and considered with the positive feedback it is meant to be.

There is a good idea above about making Battery movement on swamp and forest tile to 5 above, this may achieve any desired outcome of being able to retreat a little.

Also many experienced players can use Wryms to devastating effect against Saps and especially helicopters... a wounded helicopter is often useless against Khrals, no need to make Wyrm even stronger here as it will skew the balance even more, hence recommendation please leave Wyrm as is, and do not change any stats for that troop.

Cheers

Earth

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 15, 2015 12:42

Nov 15, 2015 14:09

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

skellngton

Messages: 3,
Joined: Nov 12, 2015,
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Do you have any data on the ranked 1 vs 1 matches about which races are winning vs others?

Do you have any data on which units are built in those matches?

Just because people SAY one unit is overpowered doesn't mean it is...

Nov 15, 2015 16:02

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

legia

Messages: 109,
Joined: Jul 17, 2015,
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Don't change to much. We need to improve few most important things: OP of marauder, swarmer and speeder, UP of eclipse, tank, and battery.
About proposed changes we must look at it on all aspects, and on against all units:
1) Marauder - 1 LG is good change. He would be still good against swamers and speeders, but he wouldn't be so dominant on small and medium maps where light units must capture free bases.
2) Tank - cheaper tank means that it would be easier to save credits for battery. Tank would be still useless against Khral (especially with garuda GH buff) so it only help with titans. I would much more prefer increased mobility to 9 or 10 to help with early rush on titans. Maybe cheaper tank would be used in Sap vs Sap games but still rarely.
3) Battery - Mobility to 7 is very good. 4 or 5 Move after Attakc mobility is really no differnace! It's needs at least 6, 7 and it is still ok. Range -4 is very big buff, battery needs buf, but with swarmer HG -1 and no eclipse +1 HG battery would be to powerfull.
4) Engineer - 10 rounds is still to long. EMP must recharge faster - about 5-7 rounds.
5) Plasma - -1 air is very good, but minor change.
6) Mecha - with eclipse buff and swarmer -1 defence giving mecha +1 air could be to much for titans.
7) Eclipse - 350 credits is good change, but I would prefer +1 HG attack to help against pinzers, plasmas, tanks and also speeders and marauders wich would give eclipse much more flexibility. Remeber thet battery would be in range with eclipse so eclipse really needs +1 HG.

Swarmer - -1 defence is good solution because it would affect all matchups and all units. -1 to HG with no change to marauder and speeder air attack is very risky. Speeders and marauders where well balanced against swarmers, and with -1 HG and -1 Defence to swarmers would weaken swarmer to much. Also swarmer would be much less usefull against battery and wyrm.
9) Pinzer - air +1 is good change. Would help with sap vs sap and khral vs khral games.
10) Wyrm - HG -1 is good to help balance titan vs khral games. Giving air +1 and reducing swarmer HG and Defence -1 will create situation that swarmers would be just cannon fodder, so my opinion is - don't change to much!
11) Garuda - HG +1 is good choise - garuda could be used against pinzers, marauders and tanks (rarely used ins sap vs khral games) but still garuda would be useless against titans because eclipse would would cost 350 - same as garuda. To compansate wyrm and swarmer HG lost I would suggest add garuda +2 HG.
12) Leviathan- very needed buff it would aid leviathans.

Where is assimilator mobility increase to 7 and UV recharge reduction to 7?
Where is speeder weaken? He is still very powerfull against sapiens and khrals especially with swarmer HG -1.

I am somekind of veteran here. Check my videos about UniWar on YouTube: LINK.
Playlist in English: LINK.

Nov 15, 2015 16:49

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

Stooper

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Joined: Nov 15, 2015,
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It's nice to see that this many people are so quick to respond to a game that they love so much. My hobby is board gaming, I collect board games, I play test games for publishers, and I even have a few of my own board games currently in development. It is in this experience that I must stress that the changes proposed must be made incrementaly in order to fine tune the change. When you have a game that is this refined already, you do not make changes in large chunks or you will find yourself with a mess. The large chunk changes should only come during early development and I believe this game is way past early development. A few players have mentioned here in this thread that a big problem with this game is imbalanced maps. I agree with this 100%. That being said one of the things that really draws me to this game is the fact that players can design maps and that those maps can become ranked. If only there was a way that once an unranked map had enough votes it instead was put into a "waiting to be checked Que". Then perhaps you could have permission only access to these waiting maps that only the most involved or evolved players can test these maps and approve/deny/or suggest changes to the author. But before any of that is implemented someone really needs to go through the ranked maps and eliminate all the obviously unbalanced maps. Change is good. Development and refinement is good. And Balance is not only good but in my opinion the most important part of gaming. Please heed the warnings and the fears of the players and implement the changes much slower than proposed. Thanks for reading... I love this game

Nov 15, 2015 19:08

Subject: Unit BALANCE changes

GOUT

Messages: 19,
Joined: Feb 15, 2015,
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I like the recent trend of the uniwar app being updated so quickly. I love that the community has access to the devs and changes get implemented. I like the short beta testing period and don't mind that not all the bugs get ironed out for the public release. It adds to the community aspect of the game. I see the unit adjustments in a similar way. I have my thoughts as to which adjustments are good and which aren't and a lot of what people are saying seems smart, but I don't think anyone, myself included, will really know until we play with the units. As long the devs listen, especially to the experienced players, like they already do with all the other aspects of the game, then I say just make the changes and we can discuss once we've played and make tweaks. That would fit the ethos of the game.

If you're worried about balance in the interim then just play mirrored games or team games with multiple races. But the proposed changes seem well thought out enough that i'm reasonably certain the game is not going to get ruined.

Also whoever said the thing about maps, balance etc. was right on.

Nov 16, 2015 07:17

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

DrMonte

Messages: 9,
Joined: Jan 27, 2015,
Location: USA , North Carolina
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I remember that the Microsoft Corporation changed their system, to try to appeal to the tablet users.
It has cost them untold millions of dollars, and caused the Desktop Personal Computer market to suffer needlessly.
The lesson to be learned here is; "You do not radically change a system that has been successful for years".
If we do not learn from historical examples, we will suffer the same fate.
I am against major changes, to try to "balance", UniWar.
Small incremental changes would be much better.
I agree with my friend Talone. - Dr. Paul Monte.

Success is just the beginning...

Nov 16, 2015 09:50

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

StarryBlink

Messages: 184,
Joined: Jan 04, 2012,
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.... Sorry , when I continue it's too long for 1 post ...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Nov 16, 2015 12:57

Nov 16, 2015 12:12

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

Apercent

Messages: 744,
Joined: Sep 08, 2015,
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To all who hate the battery;
The main reason its great is because it can move 2 spaces back! This gives us the chance to dip in and out of walker walls! Which were previously indestructible. This also means wyrms can't Spam sapiens artillery as much, nor can swarmers!: This does make the game more fair.

The khrals still have a perfectly good unit: the underling! Learn to use it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Nov 16, 2015 20:16

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