Unit BALANCE changes

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Nov 16, 2015 12:25

Subject: Unit BALANCE changes

unikz

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Joined: Feb 19, 2013,
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I agree with most of the experience players.

Here is my thought

1.there are so many units changed in one go,so it is really hard for me to say if it is good or bad right now.

2.the priority is to adjust the selection of rated maps. making a short list like 50-100 of them only.this will be much easier

3. we need lots of tests before apply the huge changes.

Nov 16, 2015 12:45

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

mistercreepy

Messages: 207,
Joined: May 15, 2012,
Location: Hong Kong
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Been reading all the posts, laughing out loud at TALONE and I.AM.THE.MTN. Love your spirit, gents, and I'm not going to give you a hard time for that. After all I'm making a freaking Uniwar board game.

Anyways. While I do think that slower gradual change is probably better in a vacuum, it isn't the case here. GOUT (what's up with all caps usernames btw) has hit the nail on the head. Let's trust the devs on this, they've done some research. The way forward is to try it out and see how the dust settles. GOUT also emphasizes the need for a ranked map fix. Most of the championship tournament maps have been pretty balanced; why not create a smaller pool of ranked maps?

Here's a new point: I really like how bringing the cost of the tank and eclipse down 50 puts them in line with the garuda and creates a category of "350 credit unit". The complexity of Uniwar is what's great about it, which is why so many players are active after years. But by making a "350 credit unit" common across races, it will be easier for new players to grasp the race balance. Maybe this is just a noob thing to admit but it took me some time before I stopped thinking about the sapien tank as a viable defense against the plasma tank. Now with a 150 credit gap between tank and plasma tank, it'll be obvious to new players that isn't a fair fight.

Lastly. Remember, the devs are working on new units, and even new races. Let's trust them to listen to the community and fix any huge mistakes. There will certainly be balance issues to come! The current proposed ones are pretty tiny compared to what's coming.

Thanks again Xavi et al for the great work. Best game ever.

Nov 16, 2015 12:58

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

StarryBlink

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After reading comments I too agree that you should change as least as possible
then see whether the game come closer to the balance or not.

Uniwar is already very balanced. Thus, fine-tuning it is better & safer than radically change it.

Here're my opinion about the proposal for change :
1) Jeep - decrease attack vs ground light by 1 :
Agree, jeep is silgthly overpowered now.

2) Tank - cheaper from 400 to 350 :
Umm, I agree sap. tank is underpowered now. It need some buff.
But make it cheaper... It sound boring. And it likely to help sap vs titan only in low income maps.
So I suggest increasing its mobility from 8 to 10 instead.
This will enable tank to charge right into the frontline and retreat faster when it got broken.
Should be interesting to play. and work in all kind of maps.

3) Increase battery mobility :
Disagree. Just increase its range & mobility after attack is enough.

4) Increase battery's mobility after attack :
Agree. But just make them able to retreat 1tile on swamp and forrest is enogh.

5) Increase battery's attack range to 2-4 :
Agree. Big change, but batterry deserve an attack range that comparable to wrym & walker.

6) Faster engineer cooldown for EMP :
No opinion. It will have no effect in the real battle field.
Since engineers will almost alway be dead lonnng before it can cooldown.

7) -1 plasma attack vs air : Agree.

8 ) +1 mecha attack vs air :
Disagree, since mecha already doing well for their price.
Increasing its air attack then you'll make it overpowered.
If you want to help titan, you should fix where it's weak. That is ** speeder **
Although some people say speeder is strong.
But compare to jeep and swarmer I'm sure speeder is the worst 250 dollar unit.
So I suggest increasing speeder mobility from 16 to 18 or 20. And leave mecha as it is.

9) cheaper eclipse from 400 to 350 :
I agree eclipse need some buff. But I don't like decreasing its price.
it's boring. And it doesn't fix the problem of eclipse that's :
eclipse's already strong vs aircrafts but it can't touch aircrafts when they're across bad terrain.
And eclipse is almost useless when kharl/sap opponent desire to go for a tank war instead.

So I suggest increasing eclipse mobility from 10 to 12 and +1 its attack vs ground heavy instead.
That should improve titan problem about bad terrains. And make eclipse more versatile.

10) -1 swamer defense : Agree.

Nov 16, 2015 13:11

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

StarryBlink

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Continue ......

11) -1 swarmer attack vs ground heavy :
Disagree. If you already -1 its defense, that should be enough nerf for swarmer.

12) +1 pinzer attack vs air : Agree. Sound good.

13+14 ) Wyrm +1 attack air and -1 attack ground heavy :
No comment. Wyrm is already fine as it is.
But if you want to make it stronger against sap but weaker against titan, it's alright.

15) +1 garuda attack vs ground heavy :
Disagree. Garuda is already doing well for its price. With more cost-effective than copter.
Increasing its attack vs groung heavy, then you'll make it become overpowered.
Thus, don't decrease swarmer attack vs ground heavy. And leave garuda as it is.

16) +1 Leviathan defense : Agreee.

Nov 16, 2015 13:37

Subject: Unit BALANCE changes

bj549

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Joined: Feb 02, 2015,
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It's impossible to find perfect balance for all races and maps. First of all, ranked games should be mirrored.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 16, 2015 15:08

Nov 16, 2015 18:23

Subject: Unit BALANCE changes

Cordeth

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Joined: Nov 16, 2015,
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I am a casual player and while i agree with most changes, the swarmer -1vsHG bothers me. Their -1Def is good but to take away their already shaky vs HG is a bit harsh.

Now my other issue is the special units engineers, assimilators and the scorpions ( name alludes me). Assimilators have a clear advantage they can UV sap and Khra. They can also assimilate underlings. Sap and reprogram mechs and emp pulse the titans. Bit they cant counter plague with healing. The scorpions on other hand have the short end of stick (unless i missed something). They can plague Sap and infect marines, but what def they have against Titans?

Nov 16, 2015 20:14

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

Apercent

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Joined: Sep 08, 2015,
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One more thing ( I promise I'll be quiet..the rest of the day

) I doubt the +1 defense to the leviathan is going to help them much. 3 battleships > 4 leviathan, so the cheapness doesn't help much. Possibly, we could give the garudas much more antiaquatic. Or give swarmers heavier aquatic attack. Now helicopters are needed to get rid of swarmers, and the leviathan can just be an antiair unit.... .

Apologize for the multiple posts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 16, 2015 20:22

Nov 17, 2015 00:11

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

kyle kroeger

Messages: 23,
Joined: Jun 01, 2015,
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Thanks again for everyone's post. Keep them coming. We will probably make small tweaks based on your comments. This might answer some of your questions:

Marauder: One of the most overpowered units early game. It is the only unit in the game that can singlehandedly stop a capture attempt. This often breaks maps since starting positions can often be 12 mobility apart. Reducing G.L. to 9 will help other races early game. We realize that this will further the problem between SvT, but we have made up for this in our adjustments to the Tank and Battery.

Tank- The tank is a big problem and we do not yet have a solution we all agree on. We have deliberated between 3 repair, +1 defense and 350 cost. I support Xavi in whatever decision he chooses.

Battery - Come on guys! Loosen up a little. Apocalypse.N exaggerates when he says "move after attack from 3 to 6 to 7 or to 999 doesnt make any changes at all", but he is right in some sense. The battery is weak. It is worthless in SvK and it gets destroyed against a walker which cost more. It is the perfect unit to give a giant buff sense it will only help SvT and barely affect SvK (if at all).

Engineer- We know everyone wants it reduced more. It was heavily asked for in the survey, but this is all you get for now. We will probably decrease it more in the future.

Plasma and Mecha- seems like everyone understands these changes.

Eclipse - We are still in debate between 2 repair and 350 cost, but everyone seems to agree that it needs an upgrade.

Swarmer- Extremely overpowered. At high level, they beat speeders hands down and beat marauders on most maps. Reducing its defense is a big change, but keep in mind that it doesn't engage it's defense (most of the time) while attacking. This will help against KvT and is a big part of fixing KvK.

Pinzer - Someone mentioned that it will now be really strong against swarmers. That is the whole point. This is designed to pair with the swarmer nerf to provide a least one decent counter to swarmers in KvK.

Wyrm- Reducing G.H. helps in KvT. Increasing air helps in KvK. Kraleans are getting huge nerfs so a buff here or there is merited.

Garuda- Designed to compensate for wyrm and swarmer losing G.H. Garuda is worthless against Titans so it is the perfect unit to receive the compensation.

Leviathan- Seems like people understand this one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 17, 2015 00:14

Nov 17, 2015 04:00

Subject: Unit BALANCE changes

willwolfpup

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Joined: Nov 17, 2015,
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Whoa, Talone brings up an incredible point. A player of just six months who took the top of the leaderboards and has the ear of Uniwar. I think Talone would agree, but the word "prodigy" comes to mind?

Nov 17, 2015 04:05

Subject: Unit BALANCE changes

Benaiah2016

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Joined: Nov 17, 2015,
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Wow! I haven't played for very long. But Kroeger seems to seriously understand the Uniwar secrets and tactics.

Nov 17, 2015 04:23

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

willwolfpup

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Joined: Nov 17, 2015,
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DrMonte wrote:
I remember that the Microsoft Corporation changed their system, to try to appeal to the tablet users.
It has cost them untold millions of dollars, and caused the Desktop Personal Computer market to suffer needlessly.
The lesson to be learned here is; "You do not radically change a system that has been successful for years".
If we do not learn from historical examples, we will suffer the same fate.
I am against major changes, to try to "balance", UniWar.
Small incremental changes would be much better.
I agree with my friend Talone. - Dr. Paul Monte.

Dr. Monte,
I respect your opinions on incremental change and I too am a student of history. Untold millions have been affected by changes that were overly dramatic. But history has shown us that there is also a place for sweeping change. The most apt metaphor for Uniwar unit changes I see is the abolition of the slave trade. There were untold millions who similarly decried sweeping legislation that would usher in change on a grand scale. They too used the arguments that quick change would invite disruption and "economic" loss. But, as history has shown us, there was an urgency that was not understood by all that necessitated immediate action. As Britain had reached a dramatic point of decision in the early 1800s so we too must be bold in our steps and firm in our conviction in approving these sweeping changes to the game of Uniwar. Stop the madness. Nerf the swarmer. Let us not be ignorant to history's lessons lest untold millions be given an unfair defeat at the hands of poorly balanced units.

Nov 17, 2015 10:35

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

Kevster

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Joined: Jan 27, 2015,
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Hi all. First up, let me state that I love this game, and really appreciate the dynamic nature of both its game-play and development - and that especially includes the responsiveness of the dev team, moderators etc. Well done!

To be honest I actually agree with most of the changes, except...

I think the swarmer is too nerfed. I understand Kroegers point, but I really wouldn't reduce its defence. Its already quite a weakling.

As others have pointed out I would also only make 2 of the 3 suggested changes to the Battery. I think implementing all 3 suggested changes will swing it back to being too powerful.

One thing that I am surprised never came up, and I am sorry I missed the first round of feedback, is the power of the Walker. I really think its attack should be nerfed a little. As soon as Walkers arrive in a game they change the overall balance dramatically and if the titans turtle up around one or two walkers then its almost game over. A combo of plasma's and walkers is like a moving behemoth of impenetrable steel. I do understand that they are an integral part of titan strategy, but even though they are hamstrung by poor mobility I often think they affect game play too much as is. My suggestion is to keep the range but drop attack a little.

I notice that no experienced players have said anything about this so maybe my 2 cents worth of opinion is only really one cents worth, lol.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Nov 17, 2015 10:44

Nov 17, 2015 12:36

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

legia

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Joined: Jul 17, 2015,
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Kevster wrote:

I think the swarmer is too nerfed. I understand Kroegers point, but I really wouldn't reduce its defence. Its already quite a weakling.

Swarmers are veeery good but you must learn how to use them, check this game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnEw9xLAg1E

I am somekind of veteran here. Check my videos about UniWar on YouTube: LINK.
Playlist in English: LINK.

Nov 17, 2015 13:09

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

kyle kroeger

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Joined: Jun 01, 2015,
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Kevster wrote:
To be honest I actually agree with most of the changes, except...

As others have pointed out I would also only make 2 of the 3 suggested changes to the Battery. I think implementing all 3 suggested changes will swing it back to being too powerful.

Great feedback Kevster. We may end up only implementing 2 to start out with. Regarding the walker, the Khraleans have no trouble against the plasma and walker combo so our plan is to increase the efficacy of the tank and battery rather than nerf the walker.

P. S. Go to the forum page on tips and tricks - > gang up bonus to learn why the swarmer is so powerful

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 17, 2015 13:17

Nov 17, 2015 15:25

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

Tibor Szondi

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Joined: May 20, 2010,
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Sorry I am late to this, I really like some of the new balance changes, specifically the range of the battery. I always thought this was a huge oversight.

I had a few ideas for future balance changes. If these have been proposed and shot down before, I apologize.

1) The infector needs to be nerfed a little bit, I think one good way to do that would be to put a recharge on it's infection. Both the engineer and assimilator have recharge times, and I think the infector should as well.

2) To buff the marine, I think it would be neat to give them an ability similar to their peers. In my opinion a great option for them would be scuba gear. Basically what this would do is allow marines to go on water (like marines do) except they would go under water (similar to underlings in their tunnels). This would give them a strategic ability on certain maps, but it would not buff them through the roof breaking balance. The great thing about this is that all the mechanics for this ability are already in the game.

Thanks uniwar for continuing to make this such a great game.

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