Unit BALANCE changes

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Nov 20, 2015 17:00

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

volf

Messages: 81,
Joined: Jun 03, 2015,
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I agree with everything chn zero said. I dont like marauder being nerfed and I feel like buffing the tank up just a tad is better than reducing the cost which would lead to tank spams which sound really boring to me...

Nov 20, 2015 19:38

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

Gwalcmai

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Joined: Jul 20, 2015,
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Two comments about the changes, well actually three.

1. Thank you to all who work to make this game fun for countless hours. You all rock! Its a tough job figuring out changes to make and an even tougher one to propose those and deal with people like me who are concerned with some of the pending changes.

2. KvT. In my opinion (and I am by no means a great player so take this with that in mind, lol), air gets pretty useless against titans and by dropping the price of the eclipse, that makes it even more so. So krahls are left with underlings, pinzers, and wyrms, but the changes have just hurt wyrms capability against the heavies (not just the plasma tanks people are talking about, but the speeders, eclipses, and walkers as well). This to me seems to put to much in favor of the titans in the KvT. I know there are a lot of players who play krahls and it can get frustrating for those titans, but the combination of these changes seem to flip the frustration from one race to another instead of bringing balance to them both.

3. KvAll. In a water war, the leviathan is fairly useless. Yes it can dominate in numbers, but the other water units decimate when usually getting first hit (due to range and maneuverability) without a shot being able to be returned. If range could be increased or movement that would be something. If both of those things are impossible as is, it would be better, IMO, to increase the price to the point that they are possible.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Nov 20, 2015 19:49

Nov 20, 2015 23:42

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

Apercent

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Joined: Sep 08, 2015,
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Possible solutions: marines can ride aerial units. So now, it will be costy to do it, but marines can go places really fast. This gives every race a distinct advantage:
Khrals: cheap and fast base capture
Titan:Good over long distance
Sapiens: fastest

For tank. The current solution is fine. A walker can 2 hit it, but it can do the same to any other 350 unit.

For swarmer; make the pinzer slightly fast so we can stand a chance v ground heavy, or give the pinzer better gh

Nov 21, 2015 22:15

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

mr.tiffany

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Joined: Oct 04, 2015,
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Where can I read the changes? Tried to find them, found only the Survey. ---found it--xavis first announcement: Balance patch, did not recognize it as a link.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 21, 2015 22:18

Nov 23, 2015 11:25

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

WolfCat

Messages: 44,
Joined: Feb 17, 2011,
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My thoughts.

GENERAL
Balance is an art which surves TWO purposes
-matchup fairness
- game diversity
second issue is no less important then the first one
Today we play SvS with just 3 units and KvK with just one which os very bad
So any changes that increase diversity are good

UNIT CHANGES - i agree to proposed changes with these exceptiuons:
Tank needs mobility 9 more then defence 13.
I would recommend giving a tank mobility 9 and defence 13, not lowering it's cost, let it be 400
Battery range 2-4 is too much, it will create a no brain unit, bad idea
Wyrm heavy should be 9, lowering it to 8 is too much (escecially considering tank new armor 13)
If tank gets mobility 9 and armor 13 then Pinzer should retain mobility 8
Marine attack vs air should not be lowered (lowering swarmer defense is enough)
Mecha needs speed 8 to be able to get to swarmers on many maps. I would recomment to give mecha move 8 and retain air attack 3.

Nov 23, 2015 17:15

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

kyle kroeger

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Joined: Jun 01, 2015,
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WolfCat wrote:
Balance is an art which surves TWO purposes
-matchup fairness
- game diversity

You are absolutely right. You think very well and I loved your input. Sadly, there are a few limiting factors that have not been revealed.

Tank with 9 mobility would be a great solution, but it has been vetoed by the devs because it is not in line with the nature of its class.

A similar situation exists with mecha's mobility since currently infantry class mobility is 7,9,11.

Nov 23, 2015 17:24

Subject: Unit BALANCE changes

kyle kroeger

Messages: 23,
Joined: Jun 01, 2015,
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talone wrote:
Madhouse. Tank with defense like pinzer has. But pinzer costs 450. You guys probably really want to kill this game ....

Do you think 2 air and +2 G.L. is not worth 50 credits?

Sure, the tank will counter the pinzer, but if anyone were to use pinzers to kill tanks even now, I would expect them to be below the 2000s.

As a former student of yours, I realize you are actually smarter than this and you are just arguing to be difficult, but as long as you come with faulty arguments, I will shoot them down.

Nov 23, 2015 17:49

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

kyle kroeger

Messages: 23,
Joined: Jun 01, 2015,
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To Everyone:

I'm hearing a lot of concern from great players about the 3 changes buffing the battery. I would like to know more to fully understand your concerns. I respect your opinions.

First, I will more fully explain why these changes were selected so that you can have a reference to agree, disagree or agree and then introduce a new element.

Problems that relate to the Battery:

1. Currently the battery is only used significantly in one match up, SvT. (everyone agree with this?)

2. Currently the sapiens struggle to win in SvT match ups. (everyone agree with this?)

3. The Sapiens rely heavily on using the marauder to win SvT match ups early because otherwise they will struggle to win.

4. The marauder is getting nerfed because it is overpowered.

5. The walker is used in TvT. The wyrm will probably be used in KvK with the swarmer's nerf. The Battery is almost never used in SvS.

6. The battery was one of the most complained about units (even by 2400+ players) in the survey because it was "too difficult to use". (mobility and range are great ways of increasing ease of use)

From this information, it seems like the battery would be ideal for a giant upgrade to promote balance and diversity of units?

Do you disagree with any of these 6 premises?

Is there an element that is not represented in these 6 premises? If so, explain more fully how this element will affect SvS, SvT, or SvK.

Please respond (nicely) as I want to hear your opinions.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Nov 23, 2015 17:52

Nov 23, 2015 19:24

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

simsverd

Messages: 921,
Joined: Dec 02, 2010,
Location: Bergen, Norway
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hello Kyle!

i agree that the battery would need a heavy upgrade. I can agree on all upgrades, but if i could choose i would rather have move-after-attack set to 5 and give +1 GH instead

Moderator of gamechat and forum. Tourney admin.

Send me a PM here or invite me to a game if you want to ask me something, suggest a map for tourney or just wanna play a game

Nov 24, 2015 00:24

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

Needle

Messages: 21,
Joined: Nov 23, 2015,
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@Kyle: Great job on moderating this discussion!

1. First I think all unit change proposals are more or less fine to me. Even if the high number of controversial replies might not form a clear picture, just be brave, take the risk and do the change. If later one or more

modifications turns out to be bad, well, then take it/them back.

2. I support all 3 proposed upgrades of the battery. Currently it is a weak unit and does not justify 650 credits. I even think, in most situations it is not more useful than a khralean wyrm. The lack of move before attack

decreases its attack radius (by attack radius I mean attack range + mobility). A heavy upgrade is needed. Attack range 2-4 sounds good, quite natural if compared to a wyrm 1-3 and walker 3-5. Move after attack 7 is ok, allows him

to really run away. But it must be clear that those upgrades will not change the fact that it still cannot move before attack thus having only an attack radius of 4. The battery will be stronger but still has another character

than a wyrm or walker, both having an attack radius of 5.

3. We should have a characterization of the 3 races when designing/changing their units, e. g.: A Khraleans is a primitive race with weak units like the underling that are cheap and fast. The idea is to overrun the opponents

bysheer number and speed. Titans is a highly developed race, it's units like walker are strong. They are expensive, but a small army is sufficient. And Sapiens is a race not in between, but instead with units demanding a high

level of micromanagement (like the marauder). It's real strength unfolds when the units are orchestrated properly. When the characterization is fixed, any unit upgrade should comply to it. There are many suggestions that make

sense in a local view but we should consider the whole picture.

4. For me the worst race imbalance is the S vs K. Except in some special maps, S rules K straightforwardly. Therefore I would like to see an upgrade for K in this regard, e. g. 1 air attack for underlings to help garudas fight

helis with gang up (and also help them fight swarmers in K vs K).

Nov 24, 2015 00:43

Subject: Re:Unit BALANCE changes

Needle

Messages: 21,
Joined: Nov 23, 2015,
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Ignore my 1 air attack proposal

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