ttdanimal
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ttdanimal
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The time extensions in the tournaments are very disruptive. They are adding another element that undermines the integrity of the gameplay and the outcome. It is essentially changing the rules mid-game.
I understand the intent, but I propose we need structure and defined rules built around the time extension determination and process.
First pass for discussion:
An initial time extension will only take place with exactly Y hours remaining in the tournament. Y = (The number of players) * (time limit) + (2*turn time limit) [ex, 72 hours in a 4 total player tourney with 12 hour time limits; 48 hours in a 2 total player tourney]
An initial time extension will only take place if <60% of the games/brackets are undecided.
The time extension will double the remaining time in the tournament.
A second time extension will only take place with exactly Y hours remaining from the first extension. Y = same calculation as above.
A second time extension will only take place if <50% of the games/brackets are undecided. (yes, I lowered the completion bar here on purpose)
The time extension will double the remaining time in the tournament.
There will be a maximum of 2 time extensions regardless of all other circumstances.
Clear and defined rules will allow players to adapt accordingly. This also eliminates any potential conflict of interest in the decision. There should be no subjectivity to this.
This assumes that the determination of a winner in an unfinished game only includes rounds for which both players were able to take a turn. I'm not sure if that's been implemented or not.
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xavi
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xavi
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Thank you for your input. Simsverd has made several proposals for improvements. He has been spearheading discussions and enhancements to the current system. I confirm that we are planning some changes and clarifications to the rules. The determination of a winner in an unfinished game includes all turns and not only rounds for which both players were able to take a turn. This will be changed in early January 2016. We have a deadline for these changes as the end of the 1st round of the tournament "A NEW BEGINNING" featuring $1,000 in cash prizes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Dec 21, 2015 22:34
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dougman4
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dougman4
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I think tournament round times should not be changed mid tournament, and certainly not mid round. I couldn't care less how long the rounds are. Pick a timeframe, and then set in stone for that tournament. We've had enough tournaments to have a good idea of how long to make rounds. Not all games will finish, unless you set a very long round time. But, that's the nature of the beast. What we can do is eliminate the capricious whiplash of unannounced and last minute round extensions. Organizers shouldn't be interfering with outcome. Set whatever time, and let us play to that time and no more.
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dougman4
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dougman4
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And if you are going to make tournament rule changes, you ought to do this:
1) When mirrored, the winner of head to head matches should advance to the next round. Say, in a three team mirrored bracket that player A beats players B and C head to head. Well, obviously player A should advance even if player B had shorter times to win games. After all, player B lost to player A in head to head play. I've been dumped this way, and player B took second place in tournament although losing to me in an earlier round. Especially aggravating is player C resigned his game to player B several turns earlier than need be and rigged the outcome.
2) The determination of mirrored game victory should be the total bases owned between the two games, unit value killed should only come into play if the same number of bases are owned. This avoids the situation that happened to me. In the first game, I captured all bases and won the game outright. In the mirror, I fought off my opponent from capturing any of my bases. My play was clearly superior, but I lost. Someone could lose this way currently be either losing more unit value over the two games or having one more turn in the winning game. In my case, I had one more turn. Obviously, a terrible adjudication!
3) Awarding victory for shortest number of turns should only come into play when BOTH games are COMPLETELY finished. Otherwise, number of turns is too easy to manipulate to be a valid discriminator.
4) There should be no provision to resign in tournament play, since resigning early before the natural game end rigs outcome to the detriment of other players.
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simsverd
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simsverd
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hello!
we want to improve on tournaments, both the manually admined rules and the technical ones.
Here are my latest list of possible improvements : http://forum.uniwar.com/posts/list/45/1953.page#top
(not all my ideas, but i have tried to gather the best)
1. Change duration of round: 14 days each round. Multiplied by 2-3-4 in team tourneys
2. Change rules on when time can be prolonged: only in finals (quarter-, semi- and grand finals - on request of a player)
3. 1st turn should be 1 day, not 2 days as sometimes is the case still
4. Keep mirror games in "sync", by not allowing more than 1 round more or less than the mirror game.
5. Automatic skip. Either when time runs out or after some more hours, for example 4 hours beyond limit
6. Last finished round of both parties in an unfinished game is counting (players/teams ends have result with equal amount of rounds)
7. Change tiebreaker rule : add highest number of captured bases total as the first decider (1. captured bases total, 2. least rds in won games, 3. kill/loss, 4 random). (requrement for this rule: surrender in a game will remove the captured bases count. Othervise a player can just surrender the other game if he gets an extra base in one of the games)
8. Implement new incentives to play faster - chess timer /timebank or similar
2. and 3. will be from all coming tourneys.
1. We are not agree if 10, 14 or other number of days is the best for each round. Not if team 2, 3, 4 should be just a multiply of what is in the 1:1 tourneys or if there are other reasons for why it should be less than that... (for example taking into consideration that teammates often are same country and planning can be done more in advance)
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simsverd
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simsverd
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Xavi will do 6 and 7.
4, 5, 8 are still not discussed properly
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dougman4
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dougman4
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1. I don't care how long a round is.
2. This is a bad idea. Sims, forgive me but I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a cultural gap here. It is customary in sports and competition and life in general to have fixed rules. There should never be a provision where a player can change the rules, especially mid game. Especially too, when you also play in tournaments. Pick a time round timeframe, and set it in stone unchangeable. That is nothing more than what the entire world is based on, unchangeable rules and regulations to avoid chaos. You have to understand game played for a 14 days expiration is different than one played for 21 days. And, several days before expiration everything is played a certain way. Your deciding to play god right before expiration by jerking the rug out from under our feet is simply complete nonsense. I've woken up to expired tourney games because you unilaterally and without notice extended games in the middle of the night. If I see 2 days remaining, or 11 hours remaining, or 3 hours remaining, or 20 minutes remaining - then that's all that ever should be remaining. Simple, basic, common sense.
3. 1 day is better, some players milk the entire 2 days.
4. Keeping in sync is absolutely necessary. But, it should definitely be the same turn. Even 1 turn either way causes rigging of outcome.
5. Auto skip is fine.
6. This needs to be last finished round of the SAME TURN NUMBER, otherwise rigging still occurs.
7. This misses the need to for head to head matchup winner to advance above all else. It also misses the need for surrender to be removed from tournament play. Moreover, unresponsive players should be auto skipped and the normal game AI used to play out non-responsive players' games.
8. I like this. If you wait to play 10-12 hours in, then you get docked 2 hours for your next turn.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Dec 22, 2015 23:50
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ttdanimal
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ttdanimal
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Thank you for the reply sims.
I'm in favor of most of what you posted and see them as improvements.
But agree with Doug's previous comment - I do NOT agree with #2, as I understand it. Whether it be no time extensions or clear rules that define when they occur (and well before the end of a round), it must have individual decision making removed. The rule can not be, if someone asks for it.
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simsverd
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simsverd
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thx guys, but we will have to disagree on prolonging.
Games should be played out normal. The only reason for not having unlimited time for all rounds is because tourneys would take forever.
At the finals its ok to wait until they play out naturally.
That is predictable! you know that when you get to the finals you know that there is no more playing for time.
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simsverd
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simsverd
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dougman4 wrote:
7. This misses the need to for head to head matchup winner to advance above all else. It also misses the need for surrender to be removed from tournament play. Moreover, unresponsive players should be auto skipped and the normal game AI used to play out non-responsive players' games.
This is mainly your suggestion btw:
7. Change tiebreaker rule : add highest number of captured bases total as the first decider (1. captured bases total, 2. least rds in won games, 3. kill/loss, 4 random). (requrement for this rule: surrender in a game will remove the captured bases count. Othervise a player can just surrender the other game if he gets an extra base in one of the games)
And as you see i have covered the issue of surrendering.
Regarding head to head matchup winner in a group of players you have a good point.
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ttdanimal
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ttdanimal
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On #2...
Maybe I'm not clear.
Can an extension ONLY happen in the last final match?
It seems you put in there it could happen in other rounds at the request of a player.
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simsverd
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simsverd
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all finals. quarter, semi and grand finals.
from quarter finals you only have 8 players (or teams) left. It is better that they are able to play it out on that level.
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Red Five
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Red Five
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7. Change tiebreaker rule : add highest number of captured bases total as the first decider (1. captured bases total, 2. least rds in won games, 3. kill/loss, 4 random).
I like this idea, but I think the hierarchy should be changed.
My biggest beef with toruneys is that there's incentive to take as few rounds as possible in round robin rounds (and thus, reeeeallly long turns). I think the tie-breaker order should be:
1. Units Killed (value)
2. captured bases total
3. least rounds in won games
4. random
My reasoning behind having kills first is that it provides incentive to get as many moves in as possible. With rounds essentially a non-factor, it wouldn't make sense to drag out a turn.
Also, regarding the captured bases total, does recapturing a base count? I only ask because I'm wondering if there'd be a way to exploit this tie-breaker by farming the base capture number. (This is just a thought from left-field, not sure how it'd play out, just seems exploitable).
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ttdanimal
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ttdanimal
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Sims, On finals... If we want to play them out then why have a time limit?
If you insist, can we at least make a rule that extensions need to happen in advance of it happening after anyone's potential last turn? So for 4 players, that would require the extension at least 48 hours prior to finish. The biggest issue happens when you make a move based on expectations and then those change. New tiebreaker rules help, but not enough to overcome this.
It also helps eliminate the fact that you make decisions and are in the tournaments.
Likewise, tourney rounds cannot end early (barring every grouping has a winner declared), like the last round of 2x2 did.
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simsverd
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simsverd
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ttdanimal wrote:Sims, On finals... If we want to play them out then why have a time limit?
If you insist, can we at least make a rule that extensions need to happen in advance of it happening after anyone's potential last turn? So for 4 players, that would require the extension at least 48 hours prior to finish. The biggest issue happens when you make a move based on expectations and then those change. New tiebreaker rules help, but not enough to overcome this.
It also helps eliminate the fact that you make decisions and are in the tournaments.
Likewise, tourney rounds cannot end early (barring every grouping has a winner declared), like the last round of 2x2 did.
we have time limits to be able to end games if someone stops playing the game for different reasons..
i agree that there should be given enough time so all players can play a turn. Usually i give at least 3 days.
We will probably increase the time for team tourneys from the start
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