Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

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Feb 15, 2016 00:51

Subject: Re:Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

Kroeger

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Here are some possible option packages. Options 1 and 2 are based on your feedback. Other options are based on feedback outside of this forum that I wanted to be discussed. Of course there are multiple ways of fixing the problem.

Option 1:

Swarmer +1 G.H & + 1 G.L
Eclipse +1 air or + 1 Def (I added this because the eclipse was the #2 most underpowered unit (2nd to the tank) before the update. We made no changes because the swarmer had such a strong nerf. The eclipse has remained slightly underpowered and would need some kind of buff to accompany a swarmer increase in G.H.)
Wyrm +1 air
Pinzer +1 air

Option 2 (smaller update):

Pick 2 of the following and wait to see how much it affects KvS before making more changes:

Swarmer +1 G.L.
Pinzer +1 air
Wyrm +1 air

Option 3 (this idea is based on the idea that secondary units are over used):

Marauder -1 G.L. (this would make it very hard for marauders to solo a capping underling or marine and make it impossible to solo a capping mecha) (this would also help KvS)
Speeder -1 G.L. or -1 air
Swarmer +1 G.L.

Option 4:

Marine -1 air (this was originally offered by Unikz. I hated the idea at first, but I have started to wonder it it would be a good thing after all. We want to avoid spamming 1 type of unit and marines are often spammed).

Option 5:

Helicopter - 1 G.H.
Battery + 1 G.H.

I do not think this idea would fix the problem, but it might have something to offer since Helicopters are very powerful. Maybe this idea will generate other great ideas.

Feb 15, 2016 02:14

Subject: Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

GOUT

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Option 5: This will really hurt s v t. Helicopters are essential in battling Titans that are turtled. If it takes more than 4-5 helis to take out a plasma sapiens will have no chance. Buffing battery will not compensate for the heli nerf. Heli nerf will also affect s v s too much. It has already changed helis vs tanks with the tank defense buff. Lowering heli GH will take this too far.

Option 4: this too will negatively affect s v s. Also I wonder if it will really help k v s enough. Marines don't seem that overpowered to me. Saps real advantage is having 2 units that can move after attack thus allowing massive strings of gangup bonuses.

Option 3: seems like it would be very controversial. It would definitely change the meta for ALL race matchups. And with k v s being the big problem I don't see why we should tamper with the other matchups which have become more balanced. Esp k v t which is really close to balanced and exciting to play.

Option 2: I am in favor of this option, making the first two changes. As I said before wyrm is already good against helis so adding more air won't necessarily change the meta at all. Since option 2 is a small change it would leave room to add GH to swarmer and air to wyrm if k v s is still suffering after initial changes. As well as the eclipse changes to balance k v t if needed.

Option 1: if you don't go with option 2 (swarmer GL and Pinzer Air) then I would vote for option 1 over 3,4 or 5.

Feb 15, 2016 02:59

Subject: Re:Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

Duaneski

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Put me down for an Option 2, with the buffs to GL swarmer and air Pinzer.

My second place would actually be option 3... But that would be a very big change.. I would be interested to see how it plays but I think I prefer option 2

Marines are stupidly good against garudas... So, giving them -1 air could help that. But I think using swarmers to more effectively clear said marines is a better solution. They should be good at something

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Feb 15, 2016 03:22

Subject: Re:Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

Apercent

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I think that I'm going for option one. Arguably, it helps kill off marines like option 4, and gives swarmers the attack they had back. My second choice would be option 2

I'm not in favor of option 4 because they reduce marine stats. It's not far to saps to give them infantry with no ability and small stats. I admit that marines can be spammed, but I think the solution lies in giving the swarmer 8 g.l.

I have the same problem with 3, the sapiens need some advantages over other races to help them win. I don't see what the problem is with the current maruader anyway. I think minus 1 air to speeders might be a good idea

Also, I think that the previous solution of giving eclipse a cost of 350 was a good one

Also, I'm in favor of the mecha lossing the 4 air that was already unnecessary at the start.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Feb 15, 2016 03:31

Feb 15, 2016 05:57

Subject: Re:Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

drumstep

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I would go with option 1, but with something else for the eclipse. Extra air won't change much with swarmers since eclipse already pretty much does it's health minus one to them, so it would just make them stronger against helicopters and garudas. With the swarmers boost to ground heavy, I think a 9/3 trade off between swarmers and eclipse is fair given the cost, so I don't think defense is a great idea either. Someone suggested awhile ago that giving them two heal might be good, and I think this might be the best option, since it would allow injured eclipses to heal and stop being completely useless against ground heavy, especially with an assimilator. This would also effectively lessen the damage from swarmers like you want, but requires taking a turn to do so, which I think is fair. 350 cost might work too, but I think that would make them too cheap for SvT.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Feb 15, 2016 06:01

Feb 15, 2016 07:23

Subject: Re:Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

StarryBlink

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Please don't nerf marauder anymore. It's got enough nerf

-1 its G.L. then you'll see infantry running hunt for jeep instead. That's not right.

And -1 marine's aerial attack will make them not a cheap anti-air measure anymore. Will effect the gameplay drastically.

I vote the option 1. Buff swarmer, wyrm & pinzer sound good.

But for eclipse. Although I agree it need some buff.
I think it has more than enough anti-air strength already.
The problem lie in its low mobility (compare to garuda & copter).
Especially in bad terrain, hard for it to open fire against hit-and-run swarmer.

So I suggest increase eclipse's mobility from 10 to 12 instead. Also increase its vision from 4 to 5.

Feb 15, 2016 10:49

Subject: Re:Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

legia

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Option 1:
Swarmer +1 G.H & + 1 G.L - I would like only +1 GL.
Eclipse +1 air or + 1 Def - Eclipse need a little buff. I +1 Air or +1 Def or +2 mobility.
Wyrm +1 air - Sounds ok but it's minor
Pinzer +1 air - OK

Option 2 (smaller update):
Pick 2:
Swarmer +1 G.L - ONE
Pinzer +1 air - TWO
Wyrm +1 air - no

Option 3 (this idea is based on the idea that secondary units are over used):
Marauder -1 G.L - Marauder is most powerfull unit it need some nerf! -1 GL seems the best solution - better S vs S games, better S vs K games. S vs T a little worse but with speeder change it would be ok.
Speeder -1 G.L. or -1 air - speeder the second best unit also need nerf. I would rather see -1 air, you should test this before providing changes
Swarmer +1 G.L. - OK

Option 4:
Marine -1 air - I don't like this idea. Marines are balanced, they don't have special powers, and biggest problem in S vs K and S vs S games are marauders and helicopters.

Option 5:
Helicopter - 1 G.H - It would make S vs T much worse. Bad idea.
Battery + 1 G.H - I's ok, but still I would rather see -1(or -2) GL and 50 credits cheaper.

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Feb 15, 2016 17:24

Subject: Re:Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

Apercent

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So far for eclipse we've got suggestions of

+1 defense
Pros: makes it harder for the swarmer to do a lot of damage to them
Cons-: this might make eclipses too strong vs garuda and helicopter

2 repair rate
Pros: this will let players be less afraid of swarmer counterattack, and also keeps garuda and helicopter counterattack fair
Cons-: This could make eclipses OP

+1/2 g.H (my suggestion)
Pros: makes eclipse more useful in t v t
Cons-: could possibly make the eclipse too powerful. Could be unnecessary

+1 aerial
Pros: makes the eclipse even more powerful and therefore useful
Cons-: could negatively affect s v t and k v t by making players too afraid to use aerial. Also, this could end up not changing anything

350 cost
Pros: could make the eclipse more useful in all of the above mentioned areas
Cons-: could very negatively affect s v t and k v t, by making eclipse cheap enough to spam

+2 mobility
Pros: makes the eclipse faster and more able to kill off garuda and helicopters
Cons-: could make eclipses too fast, and force an end to aerial combat on to s v t and k v t
(Which we don't want to happen)

I think I got all of the suggestions
Which ones do you agree with?

Also, I think it could be cool to let units with a range of 2 also shoot under themselves. This means that swarmers, batteries and eclipse could be used versus buried underling

As for the options, we all agree that it should either be option 1 or 2(which are very similar), right?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Feb 15, 2016 17:31

Feb 15, 2016 18:40

Subject: Re:Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

Duaneski

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I'm coming around to the idea of eclipse +1-2 mobility.

I think at least 11 Would be solid. 12.... Is tough. I could go either way.

The one thing I can say is, they've still gotta be able to defend the eclipse. So this gives it more movement in a pinch, but it is still squishy. If you move it out to hunt down a Garuda, you're dealing 350 credit but you're gonna be on the hook for 400. So I think it could be good. But....

I hate to mess with KvT at all, so it's tough. I guess I'm in the 'leave it be' camp still for now. or maybe at least 11.... Or make it amphibian. It looks like a hovercraft anyway

Feb 15, 2016 19:03

Subject: Re:Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

amidama

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now, when undo is official, remove the minesweeper for underlings!
they are so slow underground anyway, and with undo people can always see them.
making them invisible would be a good boost for khral.

underpowered units in my opinion:
tank, battery, eclipse, wyrm
overpowered units:
helicopter, marauder (instant kill for infantry on a base is a cheat), speedster
--- all of them can retreat, what gives them +2 to all(!) attacks - take it into account.

most of khral units was nerfed
wasp and wyrm was nerfed by stats. burried underling was nerfed because of undo button
wasp was nerfed, but its still one of the most useful units in KvK and probably KvS so its fine.

in race overview sap need a nerf, titan need a boost, khral is fine.

Hakumen

Feb 15, 2016 20:42

Subject: Re:Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

drumstep

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If you do decide to remove number for buryling, make it so engineer type units can "see" them at a distance of 1, maybe 2 hexes. Otherwise it will become necessary for titans to immediately surround walkers with other units to make sure they don't get hit.

Edit: Actually that wouldn't really work well with redo either. What about making it an ability for engineer types that has to be used instead of moving the unit. And instead of telling you exactly where it is, it just made the minesweeper number appear. Even if you use it and then redo, you won't be able to get any additional information on underling locations since you can't use the ability after moving.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Feb 15, 2016 21:18

Feb 15, 2016 22:01

Subject: Re:Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

simsverd

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please... try to comment on the actual suggestion from Kroeger... Dont throw in new suggestions unless you know the game at "expert-level"...

I vote for option2 (possibly without wyrm air buff) , then 1

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Feb 16, 2016 05:51

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Feb 16, 2016 02:38

Subject: Re:Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

Eikonoklastes

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I'm for option #2. Should that get voted down, then I'll advocate for option #1 with Eclipse +1 for defense.

Feb 16, 2016 02:56

Subject: Re:Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

Apercent

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If you notice, speeders are used over eclipse for two reasons

A). Because they are faster than eclipse

B) because they have a 2 repair rate

For a I call to my example the match in championship november, cheat vs newbie. Every speeder is built because of how fast it is.

For B I call tactile vs fobos rus in championship January, Notice how this guy, after using the speeders versus the helicopter, immediately lands them on healing pads. He's pretty much using them because of how fast they heal

Also, even on close to quarters maps, speeders are still spammed because they heal so fast. Look at championship November unikz vs creation. Take three guesses as to what creation is gonna build after he makes those speeders. I think we both knowhe's gonna make an assimilator, which can heal speeders very quickly (as opposed to eclipse). Lo and behold, he makes an assimilator right behind his speeders.

This is why I don't think giving the eclipse anything but more mobility and healing is going to help get them used more often for air. They aren't getting passed up because they aren't powerful and because they don't have high defense, their getting passed up because they can't heal fast enough and they aren't fast.

So I would say that we should limit our options to repair rate of 2 and +1/2 mobility rather than old +1 air and +1 defense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Feb 16, 2016 03:49

Feb 16, 2016 06:03

Subject: Re:Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016

simsverd

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Apercent wrote:
So I would say that we should limit our options to repair rate of 2 and +1/2 mobility rather than old +1 air and +1 defense.

Its not that its a bad idea, but it has already been considered to buff the eclipse, but that is not what is the most needed right now. Sap vs titan matchup is pretty good now, but would later need something for sap vs a turtling titan in some maps/scenarios.
The main issue that needs fixing is the sap vs khral balance wich already was in favour of sap, but now even more so.

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