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Next Balance Update Discussion February 2016
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Apercent

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Apercent

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I think that the solutions given in option 1 are the best solutions for s v k, not to mention k v k. Who agrees?

And if I'm being honest, both the wyrm and eclipse nerfs seem only slightly urgent. They aren't terrible as it currently stands, although they could be better. If we go with option 2, I'd make pinzer and swarmers the priority.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Feb 16, 2016 06:09

EVR1022

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EVR1022

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One more 'out of the box' idea. This one wouldn't be something to implement immediately, as it would require some extensive discussion and likely some testing, however I think it could be beneficial in the long run.

Right now there are 'ground light' units which consist of infantry, and ground heavy units that consist of everything else. I propose implementing a new class of units: ground medium. This class would include marauders and speeders. It could also include the three long range units.

Why? It would be possible to increase the effectiveness of infantry and/or the swarmer relative to the marauder & speeder without making them more effective against the eclipse or the tank-class units.

What would it involve? Every unit would have a new attack type, for which we would need to determine the proper value to keep things balanced. In many cases, I think it should remain close to or the same as the ground heavy value, but certain units should see a boost in this category, most notably the swarmer and the eclipse.

Thoughts?

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Apercent

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Apercent

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I think ground heavy is fine as is (for now)
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Duaneski

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Duaneski

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  EVR1022 wrote:One more 'out of the box' idea. This one wouldn't be something to implement immediately, as it would require some extensive discussion and likely some testing, however I think it could be beneficial in the long run.

Right now there are 'ground light' units which consist of infantry, and ground heavy units that consist of everything else. I propose implementing a new class of units: ground medium. This class would include marauders and speeders. It could also include the three long range units.

Why? It would be possible to increase the effectiveness of infantry and/or the swarmer relative to the marauder & speeder without making them more effective against the eclipse or the tank-class units.

What would it involve? Every unit would have a new attack type, for which we would need to determine the proper value to keep things balanced. In many cases, I think it should remain close to or the same as the ground heavy value, but certain units should see a boost in this category, most notably the swarmer and the eclipse.

Thoughts?



This is my third response. I've written about 12 paragraphs now and I just want to be short on this!!

I think this could be a good tool, IF we wanted marauders and speeders to behave fundamentally different from tanks. But weapons wise, I can't imagine many weapons which would be very effective against a marauder but not a tank.

I think it only makes sense that as one goes up so does the other.

I think the attack formula is very intelligent and flexible and representative of what the units are bringing to the table.

So I'm not in favor of this at this time
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LkASr

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LkASr

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the only thing I worry is that swarmers are so weak from everything, bring back the 5 defense strength

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LkASr

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LkASr

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And also, Leviathan is now quite more than spamable against Destroyers, bring its defense back to 11. And also, since Hydronauts are powerful in numbers and in range, how about reducing the Aquatic power to 12 for the Leviathans. Garudas and Helicopters are fine I guess, it's just the matter of strategy but again, Swarmers are now a bit underpowered with 4 Defense. Battery in general, is now an Eclipse on steroids and is the now the most powerful arty thanks to the buff and Wyrms now have a little harder time fighting Ground Heavies. And for Destroyers vs Hydronauts, it's the matter of who makes the mistake 1st by being blind ahead of their range. I do agree that Infectors would better off need a little recharge time on their Plague as they can spam it behind anything protecting them, if their players have the balls to do so. For competitive balance, either have both Engineers and Infectors buff their abilities' range by 1 or nerf Assimilator's ability range by 1. For Helicopters vs Plasma Tanks, I find it not making sense is to why Plasma Tanks will have the edge against Helicopters as their respective Attack powers and Defense are on par to each other (7 vs GH/14 Def = 5 vs Aerial/10 Def as both equations go 1/2, even divided by 6). And lastly, Marines don't have any abilities like the other two GLs, I probably suggest that it would need a new ability called Grenade, basically, a Marine can use it for extra damage against non-Aerial units, but has a much longer recharge time than Mecha's Teleport, perhaps twice as long.

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legia

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legia

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  LkASr wrote:the only thing I worry is that swarmers are so weak from everything, bring back the 5 defense strength

If swarmer is so weak show me game where Khral wins game without swarmers.

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simsverd

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simsverd

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  EVR1022 wrote:One more 'out of the box' idea. This one wouldn't be something to implement immediately, as it would require some extensive discussion and likely some testing, however I think it could be beneficial in the long run.

Right now there are 'ground light' units which consist of infantry, and ground heavy units that consist of everything else. I propose implementing a new class of units: ground medium. This class would include marauders and speeders. It could also include the three long range units.

Why? It would be possible to increase the effectiveness of infantry and/or the swarmer relative to the marauder & speeder without making them more effective against the eclipse or the tank-class units.

What would it involve? Every unit would have a new attack type, for which we would need to determine the proper value to keep things balanced. In many cases, I think it should remain close to or the same as the ground heavy value, but certain units should see a boost in this category, most notably the swarmer and the eclipse.

Thoughts?

Your idea is very interesting .. but not relevant for the current balance discussions...

I think you should make it a separate post under feature requests

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Feb 19, 2016 10:40


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drumstep

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drumstep

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  LkASr wrote:For Helicopters vs Plasma Tanks, I find it not making sense is to why Plasma Tanks will have the edge against Helicopters as their respective Attack powers and Defense are on par to each other (7 vs GH/14 Def = 5 vs Aerial/10 Def as both equations go 1/2, even divided by 6).


The damage formula doesn't use the ratio of attack to defense, it uses the difference. Difference between heli attack and plasma defence is 7, while difference between plasma attack and heli defence is 5. So p=1.5 for heli and p=2.5 for plasma (assuming no gangup or terrain)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Feb 19, 2016 11:08

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Apercent

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Apercent

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And also, Leviathan is now quite more than spamable against Destroyers
That's only fixable by new units. If we reduce the Leviathan strength back to what it was, the Leviathan will be dominated by battleships
, bring its defense back to 11. And also, since Hydronauts are powerful in numbers and in range, how about reducing the Aquatic power to 12 for the Leviathans.
I think it's current stats are fine. Leviathan can still cross the distance and kill hydronauts, or they can outnumber them
Garudas and Helicopters are fine I guess, it's just the matter of strategy but again, Swarmers are now a bit underpowered with 4 Defense. Battery in general, is now an Eclipse on steroids and is the now the most powerful arty thanks to the buff and Wyrms now have a little harder time fighting Ground Heavies.
a weaker wyrm means less spamming in k v t battles. And batteries cost 250 more and have far less mobility, so I think it's a worthy trade off. As for the swarmer, I support option 1, but that's a potential solution
And for Destroyers vs Hydronauts, it's the matter of who makes the mistake 1st by being blind ahead of their range. I do agree that Infectors would better off need a little recharge time on their Plague as they can spam it behind anything protecting them, if their players have the balls to do so.
As for destroyer and hydronauts, we'll just have to wait for new units. Plague isn't bad considering how slow it spreads.
For competitive balance, either have both Engineers and Infectors buff their abilities' range by 1 or nerf Assimilator's ability range by 1. For Helicopters vs Plasma Tanks, I find it not making sense is to why Plasma Tanks will have the edge against Helicopters as their respective Attack powers and Defense are on par to each other (7 vs GH/14 Def = 5 vs Aerial/10 Def as both equations go 1/2, even divided by 6). And lastly, Marines don't have any abilities like the other two GLs, I probably suggest that it would need a new ability called Grenade, basically, a Marine can use it for extra damage against non-Aerial units, but has a much longer recharge time than Mecha's Teleport, perhaps twice as long.
I agree that the marine needs an ability, but it probably shouldn't effect k v s which is already slightly in favor of saps with weaker swarmers. As for helicopters, it's only fair because of helis high mobility

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Feb 19, 2016 11:44

Kroeger

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  StarryBlink wrote:Please don't nerf marauder anymore. It's got enough nerf
-1 its G.L. then you'll see infantry running hunt for jeep instead. That's not right.


First, the Marauder is still one of the most powerful per credit unit in the game (if not the most powerful). Look at any high level game in any tournament with any race match up including Saps for reference.

Second, the Marauder can hit and run and amass crazy gang up bonuses. -1 G.L. will not affect much other than stopping cap attempts... which is the point. Not even 500+ units have even 1 of these 3 amazing and unique abilities (hit and run (4 spaces), give itself a gang up bonus & solo stop a cap attempt). I think - 1 G.L. will have to happen eventually to limit this third ability to a rare occurrence (25-33% chance).

Third, the Marauder would still be able to kill in 1 round any infantry without terrain bonus. That doesn't sound like "infantry running hunt for jeeps" to me. No other units in the game can do this. It is so powerful!

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Kroeger

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Kroeger

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I just did a move in one of my games were I was able to use a 4 hp marauder to kill a 5 hp underling... That is just not right lol

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LkASr

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LkASr

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  Kroeger wrote:I just did a move in one of my games were I was able to use a 4 hp marauder to kill a 5 hp underling... That is just not right lol


that's what marauders are for, they have their own rules

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Apercent

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Apercent

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First, the Marauder is still one of the most powerful per credit unit in the game (if not the most powerful). Look at any high level game in any tournament with any race match up including Saps for reference.

Second, the Marauder can hit and run and amass crazy gang up bonuses. -1 G.L. will not affect much other than stopping cap attempts... which is the point. Not even 500+ units have even 1 of these 3 amazing and unique abilities (hit and run (4 spaces), give itself a gang up bonus & solo stop a cap attempt). I think - 1 G.L. will have to happen eventually to limit this third ability to a rare occurrence (25-33% chance).

Third, the Marauder would still be able to kill in 1 round any infantry without terrain bonus. That doesn't sound like "infantry running hunt for jeeps" to me. No other units in the game can do this. It is so powerful!


So wait, we should nerf the maruader so that it can still kill every infantry but the ones from the race that doesn't use infantry as a weapon against sapiens?

And your telling me that if this race was to teleport its mecha, its health would be reduced to a point of where it wouldn't be able to survive a third attack, much less capture bases as intended, if a maruader attacked it?

And how does that solve the problem?

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Apercent

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Apercent

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What he meant by "hunt for Jeep" if that infantry wouldn't take enough damage to justify the counterattack jeeps would take
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