| To better balance the game, should we improve the Speeder ability? |
| Yes, add EMP immunity and hover ability over mountains and water |
 
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22% |
[ 6 ] |
| Yes, add EMP immunity only |
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33% |
[ 9 ] |
| Yes, add hover ability over mountains and water only |
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37% |
[ 10 ] |
| No, the Speeder is already too strong as it is! |
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7% |
[ 2 ] |
| Total Votes : 27 |
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Kevor
Messages: 38,
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Kevor
Messages: 38,
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nlb149 wrote: Speeders being able to go over water would give the titans a HUGE advantage in naval fights. As long as you had a speeder in front of your hydronaut, which is relatively inexpensive, you would basically be guaranteed victory in a naval fight. The sapian or kal player would be forced to either attack the speeder or attack the hydronaut from 2 or 3 spaces away and lose the only advantage they have and then the hydronaut could just back up and attack the sapian/ka ship with no repercussions.
Not true at all -- it would not represent a HUGE advantage. It would simply redress the current inequity. Look, it takes forever to save up enough credits to make a hydronaut. Then by the time you do , the Khral has got 2 Garuda's in its face killing it before it even leaves port, and it cannot fire back. That is a huge disadvantage, and completely unfair. And no, a single speeder in front of the hydronaut would not guarantee victory in a naval battle. It would just make it harder to get close to the hydronaut and take advantage of its weakness. It should be hard to do that! Right now it comes for free, because (unlike the sapiens and Khraliens), the titan player has no aerial unit to block over water. And the sapien/Khral ships could still attack the hydronaut from farther out -- they just cannot do it for free. The sapien destroyer is tough enough to withstand the return fire, and the leviathan is cheaper, so you can make more. If the titan player really wanted to make his hydronaut completely safe from units getting right next to it in open water, it would need 3-4 speeders to surround it -- and that would not be cheap (would cost as much or more than the hydronaut itself). And the sapien/Khral player could still break through the blockade by first killing one of the lead speeders, and then sending a unit next to the hydronaut and firing on it. But you'd need multiple ships and/or aerial units to carry that off. (i.e. it would be hard -- as it should be!)
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No battle plan survives contact with the enemy...
(Helmuth von Moltke, Generalfeldmarschall of the Prussian Army) |
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kickyourass
Messages: 10,
Joined: Jun 18, 2009,
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kickyourass
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Making units next to an assimilator immune to EMP is a great idea. But making the Speeders hover over water is not a very good idea. That essentially makes them ships, giving the Titans 2 ships. The Speeder could then pop onto land, attack, then retreat back onto the water, immune to attacks from most enemies.
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lordertz
Messages: 17,
Joined: Jun 05, 2009,
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lordertz
Messages: 17,
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Clearly it would only be able to hover on water if it could retreat onto land the next turn. It wouldnt make sense for it to be in the water unlimitedly.
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nlb149
Messages: 18,
Joined: Jun 17, 2009,
Location: Alabama, USA
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nlb149
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Not true at all -- it would not represent a HUGE advantage. It would simply redress the current inequity. Look, it takes forever to save up enough credits to make a hydronaut. Then by the time you do , the Khral has got 2 Garuda's in its face killing it before it even leaves port, and it cannot fire back. That is a huge disadvantage, and completely unfair. And no, a single speeder in front of the hydronaut would not guarantee victory in a naval battle. It would just make it harder to get close to the hydronaut and take advantage of its weakness. It should be hard to do that! Right now it comes for free, because (unlike the sapiens and Khraliens), the titan player has no aerial unit to block over water. And the sapien/Khral ships could still attack the hydronaut from farther out -- they just cannot do it for free. The sapien destroyer is tough enough to withstand the return fire, and the leviathan is cheaper, so you can make more. If the titan player really wanted to make his hydronaut completely safe from units getting right next to it in open water, it would need 3-4 speeders to surround it -- and that would not be cheap (would cost as much or more than the hydronaut itself). And the sapien/Khral player could still break through the blockade by first killing one of the lead speeders, and then sending a unit next to the hydronaut and firing on it. But you'd need multiple ships and/or aerial units to carry that off. (i.e. it would be hard -- as it should be!)
See I disagree. The hydronauts only weakness is that it can't return fire from enemies next to it while it can fire at targets 4 spaces away compared to the other two races' 3 space range. Leviathan are cheaper because they are considerably weaker than either of the other two and Destroyers are just as much and comparable in strength. If you had just one speeder in front of your hyrdonaut you force the opponent to either destroy it or attack the hydronaut where it can fire back, rarely will anyone be able to do both and if they can this discussion is moot anyways. Yes the other races have fliers but neither of the other races can effectively block their ship from the hydronaut because it has the extra range. I think this would lead to unbalanced game play on water maps but that is just my opinion you don't have to agree with me.
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Anonymous
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One thing that needs to change: a mecha on "cool down" should NOT be re- programmable. If it's deactivated it's deactivated.
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Hachiman
Messages: 118,
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Hachiman
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kickyourass wrote: Making units next to an assimilator immune to EMP is a great idea. But making the Speeders hover over water is not a very good idea. That essentially makes them ships, giving the Titans 2 ships. The Speeder could then pop onto land, attack, then retreat back onto the water, immune to attacks from most enemies.
Just like the Helicopter is now? But the Helicopter is much tougher and stronger. The thing is that the Titan's total lack of mobility makes them weaker than the other two races, especially Sapiens, and often quite hard to balance more interesting maps. Making the Speeder actually useful would address this, without ruining the mainly defensive nature of the race (since the Speeder isn't very tough). I'd support making it end it's move not on land, at least to start with so it is less likely to be unbalancing.
The move and fire EMP / or 2 round immunity after being EMP'd / or units next to assimilator are immune are excellent ideas though, and I think better than just making the Speeder immune.
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Gargoyle
Messages: 57,
Joined: Jun 11, 2009,
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Gargoyle
Messages: 57,
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I do NOT like the idea of the Engineer not being able to fire off an EMP after movement. This would make EMP essentially useless, unless you are playing a noob stupid enough to wander within two hexes of an Engineer. The EMP is the only thing that lets Sapiens go toe-to-toe with Titans.
I think if you weaken the Engineer you give the Titans a chance against the Eng spam without making the EMP weapon useless.
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5200
Messages: 44,
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5200
Messages: 44,
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No, it would just mean you have to protect your engineers more than you do now (like the other two "special" units from the other races, which have weaker special powers and can't use them and move in the same turn)
Believe me there would still be plenty of opportunity to use engineers.
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Kevor
Messages: 38,
Joined: Jun 14, 2009,
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Kevor
Messages: 38,
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Maybe its high time we split this discussion into 2 threads -- we've got 2 separate discussions here, both of which are very interesting:
(1) re-engineering the EMP
(2) giving speeders more flexibility
I'd suggest that we start 2 new threads, or this is going to to get bogged down in cross-conversations. If I see general agreement, I'll do it myself (or one of you Gen-Y go-getters can just do it...).
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No battle plan survives contact with the enemy...
(Helmuth von Moltke, Generalfeldmarschall of the Prussian Army) |
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PoiZen
Messages: 7,
Joined: Jul 15, 2009,
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PoiZen
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To whoever said to have mechas not re-grammable while cooling down from teleporting....You cant move the first turn once it is done cooling down, so they would still be able to re-program you before you get to move, just don't teleport near engineers/bases where they can make engineers.
I think having the speeder hover is a great idea, right now with no aerial units the titans don't have much of a chance on some maps. I do agree with what was said about changing it to aerial or leaving it as ground heavy....Maybe it should stay ground heavy so it doesn't completely change the game and its special ability is to hover, and it takes 1 round to recharge, so every other turn you can hover....If you end your turn hovering over mountains or water then you are stuck there for that turn. Just an idea, although then you still have the problem that technically the Titans don't have an aerial unit.
As for making them immune to emp I vote no...There are only 2 ways to make it a fair fight between sapiens/titans.
1) Make units immune from EMP for 2 rounds after being hit
2) Don't allow engineers to move then use EMP/Make engineers "cooldown" from using it for a turn or two. This will keep them from making new engineers each turn and moving the others ones out of the way to keep titans frozen
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Kevor
Messages: 38,
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Kevor
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So, I put my money where my mouth is, and split off the discussion about changing how EMP works in a new topic I just created:
"re-engineering the EMP"
Let's keep the discussion on speeders here (because it matches the title), and discuss how to change EMP on the other topic, OK? Thanks!
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No battle plan survives contact with the enemy...
(Helmuth von Moltke, Generalfeldmarschall of the Prussian Army) |
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5200
Messages: 44,
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5200
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I like the idea of a Mecha under the influence of EMP not being reprogrammable. Doubt it that make it into the game but I like it. It's far too easy for engineers to shut down and grab mechas compared to how much caution has to be used for assimilators and infectors to capture enemy units. Let's put some strategy back into that...
Teleport cool down seems like fair game to me- if you're dumb enough to teleport near engineers that's what you get. But I can see where an EMP'd mecha's systems are completely shut down, how can you re-program it when it's off?
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Hachiman
Messages: 118,
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Hachiman
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So right now it look s like:
93% support improving the Speeder
62% support Hover
62% support EMP immunity
... but the issue people want to talk about more is EMP itself. So any change might want to take that into account.
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Anonymous
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It is okay to let the speeder to go over water or mountains BUT the mobility cost needs to be ridiculously high (e.g. 12) for each hex to avoid people exploiting it... adding EMP immunity is a good thing and would not unbalance things too much. On the other hand, reducing the engineers EMP range to 1 square (and increasing plague range to 2 square) might also help balancing.. but that need more studies
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draka
Messages: 38,
Joined: Jun 16, 2009,
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draka
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i would like to add that i have voted EMP immunity only as i think speeders should be able to move over water but not mountains.
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