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Undo vs FOW
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wookieontheweb

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wookieontheweb

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There has been much discussion about undo because it removes the fog of war. They are mutually exclusive, but i think there may be a compromise.

When you move a unit that reveals an enemy unit, it reveals it as a silhouette. There are only 3 types, light, heavy & arial (naval should show as heavy). You only see it fully if you are directly adjacent or attack it. When you end your turn all the silhouettes are revealed.

Using undo to reveal the map as part of your turn is much harder as you need to be in range, to get adjacent or attack, each enemy unit before it would reveal itself. However it wouldn't break the ability of undo to allow you to plan your best move either.

I don't think reducing the visual range is going to help against undo turn. in fact I think it helps encourage scanning the field then undoing as the advantage increases the smaller the visual range gets.
amidama

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amidama

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It does not solve the problem, in my opinion. Undo should not reveal units at all, they either has to be revealed anyway like you are offering with siluette or fow should not be updated after move

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Edisontrent7

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Edisontrent7

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Or they can just be mutually exclusive (Or at least for now)
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wookieontheweb

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wookieontheweb

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I've had another idea that may help.

How about we remove vision?

Instead FOW is pushed back at the start of your turn by max movement + 2 tiles for each of your units or bases. Any movement you make on your turn will have no effect on units in the fog. Because no more information is revealed about the enemy once you start your turn it doesn't matter how many times a player uses undo.

E.g. a garuda has movement 12 so fow around every one of your garuda would be pushed back by 6 tiles. An underling in mountains would push back fog 3 tiles, on plains 5. A marauder on plains has 2x12 movement so would push fow back 10 tiles (4+4+2) but can't enter mountains so would only see the default 2 tiles in that direction.

This is similar to the idea that hunting for buried underlings is tedious and gives advantages to those with undo so they are now visible. scouting is also tedious and gives far more advantages to undo players, so why not do it automatically for all.
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Angkor

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Angkor

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UNDO does not remove FOW.
I think that you mean some sort of open map in the beginning, with low unit count still, when you can just roll ahead with marauder or teleport 2 mechas with different combination to have all map visualized. Fine, then FOW is reduced, but why SHOULDN'T IT BE? Open space, clear front, more realistic and strategically correct is then that fow is not a problem. Why you wanna remove it? So your enemies woudn't see if you built helicopter or tank? But how can somebody play well if he doesn't know and must contr-build unit in random? That's what you want? More randomness?

FOW is quite powerful weapon, if used correctly. A player can block your movement with frotline-set units, and then hide everything behind it. Especially powerful FOW is on water tiles, because it prevents mecha/underling/light units scouting. FOW finally cheatss on your brain, and even that you KNOW what's behind, because you checked, you play more uncertain and calculate much longer, because you don't have it visualised.

EDIT: but i agree if you suggest that units demant further change in visual ranges.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jun 26, 2016 10:34

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wookieontheweb

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wookieontheweb

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You are right undo does not remove FOW but it does diminish it significantly. Even in your wall example i can place units in suicidal positions to get a view of where your batteries are, or even waste my whole attack on 1 tank just to allow a marauder through to have a look, then undo it and decided with that knowledge what i actually want to do. Maybe i find it's all a bluff and there's nothing behind the wall. The point is i can more often than not find out by moving then undoing.

My suggestion is not to get rid of FOW but to make it work for all especially those that use undo to scan the field. If you can't affect FOW during your turn then it works but with the current way it is calculated that is not possible.
Porphyr

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Porphyr

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  wookieontheweb wrote:I've had another idea that may help.

How about we remove vision?

Instead FOW is pushed back at the start of your turn by max movement + 2 tiles for each of your units or bases. Any movement you make on your turn will have no effect on units in the fog. Because no more information is revealed about the enemy once you start your turn it doesn't matter how many times a player uses undo.

E.g. a garuda has movement 12 so fow around every one of your garuda would be pushed back by 6 tiles. An underling in mountains would push back fog 3 tiles, on plains 5. A marauder on plains has 2x12 movement so would push fow back 10 tiles (4+4+2) but can't enter mountains so would only see the default 2 tiles in that direction.

This is similar to the idea that hunting for buried underlings is tedious and gives advantages to those with undo so they are now visible. scouting is also tedious and gives far more advantages to undo players, so why not do it automatically for all.


In principle I like your idea, because it completely elminiates the need for scouting (and as such once more decreases the pay-to-win aspect of paid undo), while still keeping (at least some) FOW tactics possible. But of course it would mean that you can no longer block vision by blocking movement paths with your units (vision would have to be updated at turn begin regardless of enemy units, because you could destroy the blockers and move past them).

In addition, vision of TP'ed mecha/eclipse could be set to zero, so even with masses of mecha you could not gain any vision advantage.

The the revealed space would theoretically have to be every field that could be attacked by your units, so max movement + attack range for most units; max movement only for engineer/assimilator/infector; attack range only for battery/walker
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wookieontheweb

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wookieontheweb

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Maybe it is simply max move + vision is how far fog gets pushed back at the start of the turn (Range is always <= vision).

I agree there would need to be a tweak to the titans teleport too otherwise this would all be futile.

It may still be to much like no FOW for those those that really like it.
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xavi

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xavi

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More changes are coming to the FOW... I will comment further when they are released

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Neiko

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Neiko

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I guess we will wait for the update, but one thing I was thinking originally was "spotter" range. For example a battery could have a small spot range, maybe like 1-2 and so even though you may have vision on the map the battery needs someone to spot for them. In this case you could have a marauder up further, and that is acting as the "spotter" and now the battery can attack as long as the marauder can see the enemy in their "spotter" range.

It would require some changes so this probably isn't going to be something that happens, but I thought it might be interesting to throw the idea around.

In game name is the same as here "Neiko".
Long time Starcraft/Advance wars player before coming to Uniwar. I also try to make balanced maps, so feel free to check out my maps in game and provide me feedback
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japhib

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japhib

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FOW is a critical game mechanic. Undo is just a "nice" feature if you mess up. It sounds like the choices are
1) Full undo, FOW gets all messy & weird with silhouettes and suddenly the game is a lot less accessible
2) Allow undo only if FOW is disabled or if the move didn't reveal anything in FOW (allow people to refund their undo tokens for unicoins because suddenly they're way less useful)
3) No undo, FOW is normal and expected and functions just like in every other game ever, and suddenly the game is also less accessible b/c there's less tolerance for mistakes.

Or

4) Leave it how it is & although it's kind of glitchy, it's also really nice. This way, the game is accessible as possible for as many players as possible, but FOW is semi-fake sometimes.
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Mentalist

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Mentalist

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Can't we just get rid of the fog instead? On smaller maps is useless anyway.And the fact that people can download previous versions of the game makes any restrictions pointless and harmless. Those who update wont be able to scout while those who dont will gain a huge advantage. Can updates be forced?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jul 21, 2016 11:29

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